I might be interested now that I got a torque wrench and can do it...

 

youre going to replace your head gasket just because you have a torque wrench!!????

i guess its better to do it before it goes out...


whats the benefits of the copper vs. reg.

 

Copper prevents leaks, none ever again...

 

Carefull with those copper head-gaskets

Copper prevents leaks, none ever again...

That's not always true. Some people have had problems. Make sure your head is not even SLIGHTLY warped, nor your block. Most heads will require a light machining to reach an optical flat. Normall the tolerance is around .004". With a copper head-gasket, which is less flexible than stock, I would suggest no more than .001-.002". Also, heating it with a torch isn't technically "annealing" it. I think annealing it would be a great idea as it makes the resulting metal matrix softer.

"For annealing, the alloy is heated to above its solution temperature and then slowly cooled to room temperature. During the cooling processes, the alloying elements fall out of solution and form large unevenly distributed crystals, which do not effectively prevent granular slippage. The result is a soft, low strength alloy condition. "

It will be very difficult to slowly cool the Copper down to room temperature when using a torch. In fact, if you heat it and allow it to cool too quickly you actually harden the metal in a process known as "precipitation hardening". :? Hardening might be good for pipes, but probably not for head-gaskets. Generally trouble arises when the gasket is too firm. (Which is why the suggestion of annealing was made. It's a good idea too ... just not if you use a torch.)

Anyway ... you can read more about copper here: http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article25.htm

Adrian~

 

I also would NEVER get a copper head gasket, OEM is MUCH better!

I had a engine built by Lesco from the ground up & they used a copper headgasket & it leaked from day 1. Then less then 2000 miles later the headgasket finally blew. They instaslled it correctly & I added several additives which was -suppose- to eliminate the chance of any leek, never worked..

Now I am back to stock on my SPG

The newer saab's don't really have headgasket issues anyways

 

Re: Carefull with those copper head-gaskets

Copper prevents leaks, none ever again...

That's not always true. Some people have had problems. Make sure your head is not even SLIGHTLY warped, nor your block. Most heads will require a light machining to reach an optical flat. Normall the tolerance is around .004". With a copper head-gasket, which is less flexible than stock, I would suggest no more than .001-.002". Also, heating it with a torch isn't technically "annealing" it. I think annealing it would be a great idea as it makes the resulting metal matrix softer.

"For annealing, the alloy is heated to above its solution temperature and then slowly cooled to room temperature. During the cooling processes, the alloying elements fall out of solution and form large unevenly distributed crystals, which do not effectively prevent granular slippage. The result is a soft, low strength alloy condition. "

It will be very difficult to slowly cool the Copper down to room temperature when using a torch. In fact, if you heat it and allow it to cool too quickly you actually harden the metal in a process known as "precipitation hardening". :? Hardening might be good for pipes, but probably not for head-gaskets. Generally trouble arises when the gasket is too firm. (Which is why the suggestion of annealing was made. It's a good idea too ... just not if you use a torch.)

Anyway ... you can read more about copper here: http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article25.htm

Adrian~

Thanks Adrian for the input. That research you do on the internet is quite helpful. The performance shop I brought it to does it all the time.., so it's really not an issue.

Generally the copper head gaskets require the annealing process to soften the material to make it more plyable when installing. But the folks at Saab Savior don't even recommend annealing the gaskets they have.

For the doubters..., it's really only necessary on a supercharged or turbocharged motor running really high boost levels....or simply want to keep from blowing headgaskets.

Some use larger gaskets to bring down the compression ratio in order to install turbos or superchargers on N/A cars.

To each is there own....but I have to support this 22psi of boost I'm getting somehow.

Will post dyno results soon..

 

I also would NEVER get a copper head gasket, OEM is MUCH better!

I had a engine built by Lesco from the ground up & they used a copper headgasket & it leaked from day 1. Then less then 2000 miles later the headgasket finally blew. They instaslled it correctly & I added several additives which was -suppose- to eliminate the chance of any leek, never worked..

Now I am back to stock on my SPG

The newer saab's don't really have headgasket issues anyways

Sorry to hear about your experience, but how in the world do you blow a copper head gasket.... You would probably blow the metal of the head before you blow a copper headgasket. Maybe you should visit the dragstrip or actually see some performance shops build motors some time.

I don't doubt what happened to you, just question the experience of the actual mechanic they let work on your car. Did they use a sealant? Did they anneal the gasket? They would leak before they blow and even then would have to be installed extremely wrong....

I'll give you my experience after some serious runs..

 

DC, you don't need to be defensive of your idea for copper head-gaskets. You don't need to attack "gm"s shop's ability to work on, and understand, cars.

And I think I should be more specific on what annealing is exactly. You CANNOT do it with merely a torch. No way. Melting copper, or just heating it and then letting it cool in the air, is NOT annealing it ... not in any way. (Mind you, one of my close friends is metallurgist by profession.) Annealing is not heating the copper; annealing is very very very slowly cooling the copper from near its melting point so that it grows large crystals and not small ones; small crystals would grow if you let it cool too quickly, as would happen with a torch. It would be like holding the copper at 1,000 degrees in your over and cooling it 100 degrees every hour for 9 hours. THAT would be annealing. If anything, heating it with a torch would precipitation harden the material, not anneal it, because the copper would cool within seconds.

Also, Heuschmid, whom have been tuning Saabs for about 2 decades now, DON'T like copper head-gaskets. But you'd have to ask them for the reason's why. (Anyone here speak German?)

Everyone here can make his or her own oppinion from all of that.

 

I also would NEVER get a copper head gasket, OEM is MUCH better!

I had a engine built by Lesco from the ground up & they used a copper headgasket & it leaked from day 1. Then less then 2000 miles later the headgasket finally blew. They instaslled it correctly & I added several additives which was -suppose- to eliminate the chance of any leek, never worked..

Now I am back to stock on my SPG

The newer saab's don't really have headgasket issues anyways

Sorry to hear about your experience, but how in the world do you blow a copper head gasket.... You would probably blow the metal of the head before you blow a copper headgasket. Maybe you should visit the dragstrip or actually see some performance shops build motors some time.

I don't doubt what happened to you, just question the experience of the actual mechanic they let work on your car. Did they use a sealant? Did they anneal the gasket? They would leak before they blow and even then would have to be installed extremely wrong....

I'll give you my experience after some serious runs..

yes, it was installed properly by the shop who built my engine. It seeped quite severly from day 1 & gave me run marks on my spotless engine block which slowly turned into puddles. They after 1600 ish miles of use I noticed oil was in my coolant resevoir which slowly got worse. I then new I couldn't trust the gasket at a drivers school I was preparing for so we swapped it back to stock & it's been dry ever since. I asked my mechanic where it was leaking at & he said pretty much everywhere. ,OBVIOUSLY you know that you will not tear a hold in the copper gasket but it was leaking like a siv & I was NOT going to allow my GT3071r run the chance of getting ruined by a crappy gasket.

I also talked to fast enough perf about the gaskets & they also feel they are junk in any car!

& about my mechanic/friend, he's driven saabs for 10-15 yrs now & has worked on them longer then that. He is also one of the main mechanics for one of the prototype racing car teams, they fly him all over the country.

FWIW, my SPG only runs 18 PSI at the moment & has over 300 whp at that boost

I also think the dragstrip is quite stupid, I take my SPG to a local roadcoarse a few times a year

 

I also would NEVER get a copper head gasket, OEM is MUCH better!

I had a engine built by Lesco from the ground up & they used a copper headgasket & it leaked from day 1. Then less then 2000 miles later the headgasket finally blew. They instaslled it correctly & I added several additives which was -suppose- to eliminate the chance of any leek, never worked..

Now I am back to stock on my SPG

The newer saab's don't really have headgasket issues anyways

Sorry to hear about your experience, but how in the world do you blow a copper head gasket.... You would probably blow the metal of the head before you blow a copper headgasket. Maybe you should visit the dragstrip or actually see some performance shops build motors some time.

I don't doubt what happened to you, just question the experience of the actual mechanic they let work on your car. Did they use a sealant? Did they anneal the gasket? They would leak before they blow and even then would have to be installed extremely wrong....

I'll give you my experience after some serious runs..

yes, it was installed properly by the shop who built my engine. It seeped quite severly from day 1 & gave me run marks on my spotless engine block which slowly turned into puddles. They after 1600 ish miles of use I noticed oil was in my coolant resevoir which slowly got worse. I then new I couldn't trust the gasket at a drivers school I was preparing for so we swapped it back to stock & it's been dry ever since. I asked my mechanic where it was leaking at & he said pretty much everywhere. ,OBVIOUSLY you know that you will not tear a hold in the copper gasket but it was leaking like a siv & I was NOT going to allow my GT3071r run the chance of getting ruined by a crappy gasket.

I also talked to fast enough perf about the gaskets & they also feel they are junk in any car!

& about my mechanic/friend, he's driven saabs for 10-15 yrs now & has worked on them longer then that. He is also one of the main mechanics for one of the prototype racing car teams, they fly him all over the country.

FWIW, my SPG only runs 18 PSI at the moment & has over 300 whp at that boost

I also think the dragstrip is quite stupid, I take my SPG to a local roadcoarse a few times a year

I see.., and again sorry to hear about the issues you had with it. I've heard good and bad about these gaskets.., and although I mentioned going to the track ...it was only a recommendation to see what they use, and definately not to run your car.

Wasn't trying to be offensive as suggested by Adrian, gm....just discussing my point of view without the negative touch. I've learned a lot about my SAAB by trial and error, and generally by reading and doing as opposed to strictly reading the internet.

I'll keep you posted on my experience.

regards

 

The new factory laminated steel gaskets are all that is needed. Nordic uses stock HG on the 2.5l black car at over 2.2bar! My Viggen engine is going back together with stock gasket, ARP studs but still a stock gasket. It is the bolts I do not trust and have a history of issues. Here are some detail images of the new factory gaskets. Embossed top an flat bottom. I liked the little ruber bits to seal to the front and rear covers. The black is a thin rubber like sealant.

Look here for more http://genuinesaab.com/gallery/hg

 

I just came into possesion of a copper gasket, this was noxben's from his former ng900.

I will be installing this with my head as soon as I can order the ARP studs. What the heck right?

 

do they have these for 9000's???

 

There is no need. Only if you have uncontrolled detonation would you need the extra margin. The stock are perfectly fine. If you are really worried about it you can o-ring and use the stock gaskets.

 

There is no need. Only if you have uncontrolled detonation would you need the extra margin. The stock are perfectly fine. If you are really worried about it you can o-ring and use the stock gaskets.

how much power will oem hold?

 

Well this was in my budget range, basically traded some parts and facilities for it. So I'll give it a shot.

 

Tweek, are you sure the installation process of annealing may even be worth it?

I was considering copper HG as well, but from the sounds of it unless its installed correctly by a shop you may run into issues. I'm going to stick with OEM.

I'd just hate for you to go through the entire install just to have the copper leak from improper installation.

 

According to SaabSavior "No annealing necessary. Gasket is pre-coated and ready to install."
I will email and double check the procedure they recomend.Sind I am doing this myself, I will at least know what to do the 2nd time if needed.

 

stupid me.... just realized this thread was started months ago & I mentioned the same thing again