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T7/T5 differences?

20K views 31 replies 11 participants last post by  MintyFreshAero  
#1 ·
So i've owned several saabs yet nothing with T7 till recently. i've yet to really see any high hp T7 cars do to the MAF. Seems all the Really big turbo car's are T5? Holset's ect... 500+whp cars. as far as im aware there's no way to delete the MAF? no way to program it out to run only on MAP. similar to BT VW/audi software of the 1.8t. So this said. staying constructive and not saying buy a older car and swap viggen kit ect... whats the real differences and hurdles in swapping to T5? real issues. not we're just to lazy to spend the time swapping a entire harness. i've been told it would affect many other things? like? and how would any of this actually matter if you'd swap everything harness related thats different? ABS? very curious. i really wana go Holset on my new project. and just dont see T7 doing the job or a tiny restrictive MAF in the way of something that has a 4" intake.
Thanks
 
#3 ·
What holds t7 cars back hp-wise isn't that they're t7. Having a maf over being map has no bearing on it. The different pistons are what prevent it from being an easy high-hp setup. T7 cars have pistons that cannot handle much stress. Replace those, and you're on your way to making power!
 
#6 ·
i understand the piston issue and i'm n the process of building a 2.3 motor with forged pistons. yet te MAF definatly does play a issue in high hp tuning. they jst can't flow enough to make really big hp. i've yet to see ne t7 car's running holset's and i really don't wana run a tiny intake pipe to a giant turbo due to the MAF or no options on larger maf as well as the T7 TB sucks. they break often. why hasn't a MAF delete or larger maf been wrote into the software on the market? it really can't be that difficult. ever seen anyone convert to T5 for horsepower reasons?
Thanks don.
 
#7 ·
Okay, before you go and spout a bunch of nonsense lets get an understanding about what kind of power you're talking about.

I am going to assume you're looking for 420+whp.

yet te MAF definatly does play a issue in high hp tuning. they jst can't flow enough to make really big hp.
Not true. GM MAFs are quite awesome. They can be put on the pressure side of the intake piping. They are not a big restriction, certainly not one holding you back from making 420whp+.

i've yet to see ne t7 car's running holset's
Yeah um, there are more turbos that make power besides Holsets. Have you heard of Garrett? They make a nice line of rather large ball bearing turbos that don't take 2 weeks to spool.

and i really don't wana run a tiny intake pipe to a giant turbo due to the MAF or no options on larger maf
GS Cobra Pipe? Why do you have to run a tiny intake pipe? The main problem is there physically isn't that much room unless you do some kind of top mounted turbo. And after that, the MAF is still 3" in diameter, and they make bolt on 3.5" and 4" flanges for them. I know this requires more tuning, but it isn't the restriction you think.

as well as the T7 TB sucks. they break often.
Um wat? Stop buying 175k mile 9-3's and maybe the TB wont go bad in a week. They last over 100k miles when brand new, and you can get the rebuilt with a warranty from BBA reman.

why hasn't a MAF delete or larger maf been wrote into the software on the market?
See above, you can buy larger flanges for your stock MAF. Tuning required.

ever seen anyone convert to T5 for horsepower reasons?
Thanks don.
Not from a T7 car.

And also, your complaints are crazy. Are you seriously disappointed with the free tuning software for your car? Have you ever tuned a non-Saab?
 
#9 ·
T7 MAF will become an issue. That doesn't mean there aren't guys just dumping enough fuel up top, past the readable range of the sensor, to fake it... But at some flow rate you can't fake it anymore.

These MAFs have a frequency output that changes dependent upon flow rate. What does the stock frequency to mass flow output graph of the stock sensor look like? How much headroom is available?

The OP is right, at some point the flow will be outside the readable range of the sensor. It'd be great if someone could find the frequency to flow graph for the sensor.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I am sure scaling is happening now, at the software level.

The LSx people have 3, 3.5 and 4 inch MAFs at their disposal, tuned at 500+hp.

Don't forget, the GM MAF can be pressurized as well. This would be helpful because not too many 420+whp cars are using more than 3" IC piping making the MAF not a flow bottleneck. Then you can have your 5" unnecessary intake. Not sure on the tuning with a pressurized MAF.

If I am reading it right, these should maintain the stock outer size, while boring the inner diameter to 86MM.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-CHEVY-BI...=item48451a0438&item=310396978232&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

I wonder how well these would work on the Saabs.

Also, removing the screen is supposed to increase flow by 105CFM.
 
#17 ·
I'd be surprised if the 3.5" MAF was ever over-run by a saab. There are people pulling ~60lb/min through them on DSMs.

As stated, there needs to be scaling done, and on DSM's there is extrapolation that's done based on VE and RPM that allows the guys to run stock 2g mafs past their limits, and same with 3". You wouldn't REALLY want to do this without some dyno/wideband time, but it's doable, and repeatable. I am, by no means, a code-writer, but the concept is easy.

Anyways.. back to the OP. 400hp is not anywhere near the limit of the MAF.
maffrequencylimits [ECMTuning - wiki]

The two most common GM MAF sensors used on our DSMs are the 3" and 3.5", part numbers 25180303 and 25179711, respectively. These sensors operate fundamentally different than the Mitsubishi MAF sensors. The GM MAF sensors work by measuring mass airflow directly. They do not need temperature and baro data because they're not measuring volume. They are reporting air mass directly as a frequency.

The biggest problem, IMO, with these MAF sensors is that this frequency to mass mapping is non-linear. So as airflow increases, it takes less and less change in frequency to present a larger and larger change in air mass. This makes the system very sensitive to fluctuations in frequency output from the sensor.

Neither a MAF Translator nor the ECMLink V3 GM MAF cable allow you to see the raw GM MAF sensor frequency directly. The MAF Translator provides a translation to stock DSM-like frequencies, while the ECMLink V3 GM MAF cable provides a simpler translation that produces raw frequencies that are quite different (but that the ECMLink V3 ECU code knows how to handle). So it's best to avoid talking about limiting-frequencies when discussing a GM MAF sensor when used on a DSM and rather just talk about air-mass metering capability.

Also, the GM MAF sensors, like any MAF sensor, are sensitive to anything that causes the airflow through the sensor to be unevenly distributed across the entire area of the sensor opening. It's very common to see smaller diameter piping leading to or from a GM MAF sensor cause the sensor to produce a higher airflow reading than that actual mass of air flowing through the sensor. Because the metering capability of the sensor is dictated by the maximum airflow reading it can report, having it report a value that is artificially high reduces the metering capability of the system.

That said, you can expect a 3" GM MAF to easily measure (report) 600 gm/sec (80 lb/min) well before any "limit" is reached. The 3.5" would probably measure over 700 gm/sec (92 lb/min)! The problem is that we have very little data to back any of this up. But the bigger problem, again, is that well before you reach these limits, the frequency to airflow mapping will simply become too sensitive to be usable. The result is a very choppy airflow signal to the ECU and many of the same problems mentioned above with MAF overrun on a Mitsubishi MAF. It's just for a different reason.

So with that in mind, we typically recommend that ECMLink users enable the MAF Clamp function with running a GM MAF. Enable it around, say, a MAFRaw reading of 2700-3000hz (that might vary a bit depending on whether you are using a MAF Translator or an ECMLink V3 GM MAF cable) so that the MAF signal is effectively ignored above that frequency anyway and it won't matter what's going on with the signal. This also effectively removes any metering limit that might have existed.
 
#19 ·
#20 ·
EDIT: hell both +450whp
Haha no kidding.

I don't see anything saying 100% there is NOTHING you can do to achieve higher numbers. I bet using the biggest MAF and some clever tuning is all that is needed. I have my doubts if the car will drive as smooth until someone figures it all out.
 
#24 ·
There's different ways if handling it. You can scale down the mafcount similar to the old super-afc. The problem there is that if all you do is scale back the mafcount, you'll put yourself in dangerous low-airmass maps.
You can scale the injectors back, too. You'd need to know the airflow differences between the 3 and 3.5" maf. I'm sure tom would help you out if you asked. There's probably very few people with more time coding around the gm maf than tom. I've never written the code for tuning. I'm not going to pretend I could. The scaling shouldn't be difficult, though.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Not to be a jerk, but who's Tom and what does he know about Trionic 7 coding?

I'm not saying no one has a way around it, or that it's not possible. I'm just not aware of it and I do know that it's not a trivial task.

I'm happy to learn more, and I am legitimately asking, but I want to hear real info from somone who really did this and proofed it before I hear that it's not hard to rescale this or that. Anything's possible with enough time skill and motivation. :)
 
#27 ·
Tom dorris is the creator of dsmlink. He's written the code to convert dsm mafs to gm mafs, and eventually maf cars to speed density. He's not a saab guy, but he could potentially give you the information you need to start experimenting with the larger/different mafs.
 
#28 ·
The issue isn't in finding a larger capacity maf, or rescaling external to the engine controller, it's in how to make it play nice w/t7 on the ECU side. I've heard rumors of people trying different tricks, but haven't seen any info on it.

There are other things a person could try too. Like an external pressure mapped set of injectors running standalone. Just let the maf signal top out, but keep adding fuel with an external controller. T7 isn't that smart.
 
#29 ·
yeah, but the hope is to use the stock ecu with the larger maf, not needing to use external parts. Again, though... it's all a moot point, since the GM/SAAB MAF won't be over-run by us, here.
 
#30 ·
I am also going to point out that 500whp+ is not usually a DD. So when you buy a cheap ng900 and holset the shit out of it, it is no longer that "luxury" car. People tend to DD t7 cars for a variety of reasons instead of T5 cars.
 
#32 ·
not gone. sorry been very busy this week. i spoke to JZW today as well as read some more last night. and i was assure by john that there wont be any issues with a Hx35 and the MAF flow. now to the orginal issue of i still think it's a bottleneck in the intake track.4" compressor inlet, 3" MAF. just not happy with that intake setup honestly. so does anyone have any info on either this LS MAF idea? or hot pipe placement? pics? data? how it holds up on hot side?
Don