Jeez...that sounds like a good upgrade. I don't know if its about right, but if so let me know where I can get one too. I'm looking for a 3 bar MAP sensor and larger injectors as well.

 

he he - I can get the 3 bar FPR now for almost nothing for the c900's Just got myself one the other day for the SPG and the 9000 i already put one in on. (tho i've heard rumor it won't help unless i take the fuel rail too.... made me question a few things and then I just as best said :meh

 

He was saying that this upgrade would add around 25hp.
Does this seem about right?

No, that's BS. It will make you run rich and actually lower your hp. Crushed fuel pressure regulators are used when you are running high boost and max out the fuel system. Or to compensate for an ECU tweak. I crushed mine when I added a resistor to the MAP sensor. However when I had my Saab on the dyno Frank Stromqvist said I was running rich so I changed back to the stock regulator. I recommend you stick with the stock FPR.

Here is a picture of my stock and crushed FPR, 3mm to 4.2 bar.

 

Well, thanks for your help.
He said that after around 3200RPM my car will scream. He put this 3.8FPR on his ng900 N/A and said he felt the biggest performance gains from it.

Just a scam i guess.

 

Ced, do you have any info on the stock flow rate and pressure of the stock injectors?

I have some archived info on them, but nothing like I was looking for. On the Turbo Buicks, you can go from the stock 28psi injectors, to 36psi injectors without changine anything in the computer.

 

Alright this sucks, i just purchased a Bosch 4.0 bar fuel pressure regulator off of ebay and your trying to tell me its only going to do harm?/??????

 

Ced, do you have any info on the stock flow rate and pressure of the stock injectors?

I have some archived info on them, but nothing like I was looking for. On the Turbo Buicks, you can go from the stock 28psi injectors, to 36psi injectors without changine anything in the computer.

Tweek, unfortunately I don't have the stock pressure rates. Eric may have them however.

Phil...Im don't know what effects the 4.0 bar fpr will have on your car. I too thought it would help, but couldn't understand why the 4.0 bar was less expensive than the 3.0 bar fpr. So I'm definately confused as to what the difference is.

 

its alright, i guess ill just have to figure it out for myself. I just figured more fuel=more power you know?

 

its alright, i guess ill just have to figure it out for myself. I just figured more fuel=more power you know?

Only if you've got the extra air to match it. Otherwise, you'll just run rich.

Paying *any* money for a higher pressure FPR is a waste, unless you're buying an adjustable or rising rate FPR. Otherwise, you can "re-calibrate" (a.k.a. crush ) your stock FPR to whatever pressure you want.

And, like someone said above, unless you've got other mods that support or demand the higher pressure, it'll make your car run worse, not better. Plopping a higher pressure FPR on a car that doesn't need it will just make it run rich. How do you tell if you need it or not? Dyno your car with a wideband o2 sensor - if you're running lean across the board, you need it. I'm going to venture a guess that you'd have to be forcing quite a lot of additional air in before needing 4.0 bar. On the older Saabs (og 900 and 9000) the stock FPR is a limiting factor with minor mods, but even then, a small jump to 3.0 bar is usually enough. On the newer cars, it seems like the stock unit is sufficient, especially since you can get so much flexibility with chip tuning that you don't have with the older models.

 

ya i mean i got the intake from taliaferro on my car but ill probably get on the dyno and do what your sayin

 

With just an intake, you won't be near needing fuel pressure modifications. Follow the "stage" upgrade paths from your favorite tuner and you'll be all set.

 

ya but how much more air can you really bring in??

 

phil, you'll be able to bring in a substantial amount of air, even with the mild airbox mod (the 3-inch pipe mod)...

 

Ya but im saying how much air do you need to be bringing in to need a 4.0 Bar fuel pressure regulator?

 

Computers can only control (when it comes to fuel injection) the time the injectors are open. The higher the pressure the more fuel flows in the same period of injector time. The computer can conpensate sometimes for having too much fuel by "trimming" the pulse width. Unfortunately a 4.0 bar regulator probably forces more fuel in than the injectors are allowed to trim for.

Also when the car runs "open loop" under high boost it ignores the feedback and "trim" on the injectors. (The term open loop refers to the computer switching to a pre-programmed fuel/boost/timing map.) That means when under full boost that computer compensation no longer used and it runs excessively rich.

In other words, don't tamper with the fuel system unless you're sure you need it and are willing to run richer than you should. Basically this means you'll only want to raise fuel pressure if you're running LEAN and do not have funds to correct it any other way.

C900's frequently do this as altering the fuelling computer on those is difficult. But with Trionic it's best just to buy an upgraded chip.

Adrian~

 

thanks for the help adrian

 

3.8 Bar FPRV and High Flow Fuel Rail.

Gentlemen,

I'm the one with the 3.8 Bar FPRV, and yes they do WORK! If you increase the Flow as well as the Bar's (which is Pressure, 14.75 Lbs. Per Square Inch at sea level or better known a 1 BAR or 1 Atmosphere) You will increase the amount of fuel and pressure in to the head. This by tests have increased the power on most applications by as much as 21 -24%.

This application will give you VERY Noticable increase in power from 3200 RPM on thru out the rest of your Power Band. Sometines if you follow the normal thought, by going to larger Injectors, you will lose Power. The best way to proceed with modifications to an engine in in SMALL STEPS! If you pour to much fuel into a SAAB motor, you will run RICH and it'll give you a Check Engine Lite and will burn out your Catalytic Converter.

I am 61 years old, and worked for FoMoCo as a driver/engineer in the 1960's - 1970's. I hold 5 World Championships, 6 World Records, and several other Awards in NHRA, AHRA, SCCA, and CANAM. I do bring just a little experiance to the table!! LOL

Mike C. AKA 900S - Meatball

 

3.8 BAR FPRV - BOCH MOTROINC / TRIONIC ECU's

Gentlemen,

I forgot to mention in my last post that the Bosch ECU's (Motronic - Trionic) used in SAABS, Have a built in Fuel Correction MAP that will allow a range of minus 25% thru a plus 25% fuel correction. In other words, the ECU will tollerate that range of Decrease or Increase in Fuel Application.

If you do the math on the differance between the 3.0 Bar and 3.8 Bar FPRV, you will see that it is a Plus 24% differance. Small step are better to give a better handle on performance building.

Mike AKA 900S / Meatball

 

Im glad you cleared that up. So saying that, does is a 4.0 bar FPR too extensive? Also what about a variable rate FPR?

One last question. If im running slightly lean, would adding a FPR (without upgrading my ECU) be most efficient?

 

FPRV Upgrade

Gentlemen,

As to the FPRV upgrade, if you are running a Stock New Gen ECU ( Motronic - Trionic) You want to stay within the Parameters that are Programmed into the Motronic - T5/T7 Trionic, as any increase above 25% will cause the ECU to read TOO MUCH FUEL, or what is known as Running Rich!! Of coarse that is better than running LEAN, below 25% of program; which will cause Engine Detruction, ie HOLES IN PISTONS, RODS thru BLOCKS, ect.

The only way to check where you fuel flow, Positive or Negivtive flow, is to have the GM/SAAB TECH 2 Diagnostic Tool pluged into you OBD 2 Port under the Sterring Wheel and take the car for a drive thru the Full range of the Power Band. This will give you readings at all of the driving conditions that the motor is subjected to.

The best way to increase the power on a STOCK NatAsp or Turbo New Gen, is to increase Fuel Flow and Fuel Pressure, BUT STAY with in the Limits of the Stock ECU's ability to maintain a BALANCED flow and Timing for Complete and Effective Combustion in the Chamber.

Now that said; Any Modifications to AIR flow into and Out of the Engine will require a adjustments in several areas to keep fuel flow and timing within the established Parameters of the ECU. These changes, such as Air Intake Mods, Exhaust Mods, Larger more efficient Turbos, Increased Compression Ratio on NatAsp Motors, Porting and Polishing, and Larger Throttle Bodies.

A suggestion that I recommend is that you keep a DIARY of What, Where, Who, Type, Time of Year and Weather, Cost, Elavation, Ect. Of the Modifications you have done to the Car. This way you'll have a history as to what was done When and Can return to where you had the best performance.

Mike 900S/Meatball/POP's

 

Interesting.

The 25% you're referring to is called fuel "trim" and is what I was referring to in my post. Many manufacturers run 20-30% +- trim. However the trouble with that is it does NOT apply to open loop running. So at full throttle the trim is ignored. (Trionic 7 MAY be an exception. But Trionic 5 behaves more or less like most ECU's in regards to fueling. T7 is a bit more advanced. But may still do the same open/closed loop deal.)

I had a discussion with a number of Saab tech's. Basically the answer I got was, " At full throttle the only reason to upgrade FPR is if you're running leaner than you want. But even if you're running lean, if you upgrade the FPR you'll run too rich at WOT and low RPM because there's already enough fuel at that part of the power band, so the ECU is now throwing in too much."

It's safer to run rich than lean. And on cars like the C900, where it's difficult to properly upgrade the ECU, FPR may be usefull. On a Trionic car it's ok, but still not as good as an upgraded ECU.

Basically I guess the answer is "you get what you pay for" ... there are no free lunches. FPRs are ok, they work as a "stop-gap" for temporary purposes, but you'll always be better off spending the extra cash and opting for an ECU upgrade.

Also in some states (like here in Cali) a modded FPR will cause you to fail the visual emmissions inspection ... possibly the tailpipe on older cars like the C900 as well (which do not "trim" the injectors at part throttle and are nearly entirely open loop, with the exception of the O2 sensor) ... so use at your own risk.

Adrian~

 

To SAABTUNER

Sir,

IF i have read this site correctly, I believe we are discussing New Generation 900's and 9/3's as well as 9/5's (That use the same Stock Engines and Stock ECU's, that have been modified for their Weight and Other Factors for their Applications, (ie: NatAsp - Turbo - 9/3-9/5 ect.) that have been Programmed into their ECU's)!!

Any Info that I have Posted Is Correct and Can be Checked by a simple Test of the system by the TECH 2 - OBD 2 tool, as to the Fuel Use, Rich or Lean Mode. C900/SPG/9K's are NOT included in this. As they have a different System. Mr. John Moss of Saab has Confirmed these issues as well as tests.

The ECU Controls the Cycle (TIMING) of the Fuel System, INJECTORS/AIR FLOW. If you flow More Pressure as well as Fuel via a MECHANICAL system ( High Flow FPRV), you WILL increase the flow and the pressure. The Stock ECU ( Up to the Limits that have been Programmed) has as I said Before PARAMETERS built in for the Cycle that allows the Injector to stay OPEN LONGER in it's Cycle ( Timing ) and if you are Flowing More Fuel The ECU will Compansate for the Programmed Parameters that are Built in!!

Mike

 

Re: 3.8 Bar FPRV and High Flow Fuel Rail.

Gentlemen,
I am 61 years old, and worked for FoMoCo as a driver/engineer in the 1960's - 1970's. I hold 5 World Championships, 6 World Records, and several other Awards in NHRA, AHRA, SCCA, and CANAM. I do bring just a little experiance to the table!! LOL Mike C. AKA 900S - Meatball

It's a sad day when someone has to lie there way through life in order to make young and unknowing youth think that you actually hold such titles………and to think your 61 year old to boot…… you should know better !!!! :shock:
One, being an actual SCCA licensed driver, a simple search on the internet indicated you have never even held a competitors license in the SCCA, so how did you achieve such fame without a license to drive in a SCCA ?
Another interesting fact….. with 5 world championships…. I would wonder how some one of your stature wouldn't be listed in the Driver's Hall of Fame? All those records and yet all the searches that were done not one mention of your name anywhere ????
Someone said to me the other day that you stated you hold these records in other countries?
The part I don't get is :?:
NHRA is National HotRod Association….. (US based only)
AHRA is American HotRod Association …..(duh)
SCCA is Sports Car Club of America…. (don't see any international correlation there)
And of course the CANAM….. or other known as the Millionaire boys racing club…. So how does a 61 year old who lives at home with his father achieve this title?
So "5 world championships" and "6 world records" in a car that can barely get out of it's own way? Yet you have these phenomenal HP claims that everyone who's ever driven in your car (including me) don't see? And these driving records you can not seem to prove?
And you come here talking your talk?, why not stay at TSN and pretend you know what the "F" your talking about and let the real people go one helping with advise and knowledge that you do not have but pretend you do…..
Maybe between you and Scooter you might have enough experience to change your own oil….
Until then…. your case a beer a day drinking and driving, bull sh*t lies and sucking up to TSN crap carries no weight with me and I hope that more and more people with the IQ above 80 will realize that you are sooooo full of it that you should be banned from the Saab community as a whole no matter how much TSN d*ck you can suck……………… :roll:

The End

 

I have seen Mike’s 900S on a few occasions, and it has always looked nice. However his upgrade claims and hp quotes always seemed ridiculous. At last years owner’s convention I was happy to see his 900S sitting next to the dyno. I wanted to see if the 270hp claims were true. When I asked him if he was going to pull it the reply was no, because of clutch problems. A little later a friend of mine asked him the same question. This time the excuse was engine problems.

I’ve heard about this 270hp 900S for too long, with no proof or instructions for others to duplicate. So I’m calling Bullsh*t :!:

 

That's why I love this site.....sooner or later someone get's called out, and either he proves himself.., or just gets flushed out.

I had to reread the post...but looks like someone said a 270hp 900S... must be a misprint...maybe a 170hp 900S more reasonable. As far as the championship titles.., hmmm I don't know, but long before my time. Can't wait to hear about the mods.... to make that car do those numbers.

I've seen the car on a website, but unless he's running NOS on some really nice heads and pistons..., 270 on pump gas might be hard to do in a 900S.

....benefit of a doubt, out of respect for the elderly.......

regards