The 264s are not so big you still have good idle and low end response. I have these in my Vig. I have the larger 276s in my 2.0 Nira car, they are on the larger side and for a street car might be overkill.

 

gec cams from 1980's must be model without catalytic converter

 

Nick - I am erring to the 264's too - they sound like a good compromise and as I am not running a ported head, I am probably going to limit the benefits of more agressive cams.
Do you think I am even remotely accurate to get about 30-40bhp crank more than with stock T5 cams? Just trying to get a feel for gains.


Goran - not sure what cams you mean? Is there a 1980s Saab cam with more than 260+ degrees and +9.5mm lift available that will fit T5 head??

 

So - correct me if I am wrong but are the 268's that Maptun list, the same as the 264's that I also speak of ? (Available from GS - same 9.6mm lift)

When I check the Enem site - they only list the 264 or 276 Does the 268 really exist or is it a 264? And if so, it can't be an Enem cam as they don't list a 268.

This links the other way too, as Maptun suspiciously don't list a 264....

 

this thread has thought me a lot. keep them coming guys.

 

I think the 264 and 268 are the same thing.

People got 50whp out of them! Vigge, myself and Nick all went up a good 50whp with the enem cams.

They are the largest you can run before you have to clearance the head.

Here is my dyno sheet sae in Denver, probably reads a little high, but this is with the gt3076wg .86ar

It made another 125whp over 3071wg .64ar with stock cams.

John

 

Hey quick question. I understand the lift number being the amount that the came is to extend the valve outward but what about the degree number. Is the amount of degree through which is actually opens. So a 264 cam would open the valve through 264 degrees of rotation? If somebody could fill me in on that I'd appreciate it.

 

spot on.

what i don't understand is why people tend to go for larger duration cams in a forced induction motor. the too much overlap won't net power on boost. high lift cams in a forced induction motor will net big gains. my advice is don't mess with a regrind. it's just a lift sacrifice for duration. you'll still gain power, but not nearly as much as running a larger lift billet.

 

Some over-lap is supposed to help the scavenging effect as the exhaust gasses moving out help pull in the intake air and get more into the combustion chamber. This is more of a help in na cars as you suggest, but I think it still helps to some degree in fi applications.

Enem has about 5 different cams and the increase of 50whp is pretty significant. The 264/268 cams have been proven in many cars and they seem to be just about the ideal cam for 450-600bhp.

John

 

in a fi motor, you have backpressure built up in the exhaust manifold. so there is no way scavenging can occur. not to mention, during overlap, you have positive pressure pushing into the cylinder. that positive pressure will make it's way out of the cylinder and into the exhaust which is a big inefficiency. the only benefit to overlap in fi, is clearing the cylinder after the exhaust stroke. but this requires a very small amount of overlap. 268 is about right with a larger turbo like a gt30. but high lift is what makes the power in fi. duration only plays a small role.

 

One of those what works in real life is different than what works in theory.

If you look at the duration of the t5 cams, they are longer than the t7 cams, we know that t5 cams really open up the breathing and midrange on t7 cars. When we look at what they did to reduce emmissions by making a less aggressive cam, they went back in duration.

If it did not help, they would not design them with more duration, if you look at abbott's cams, they start at 243 duration, next is 245 I and 243E, then they go 275I 243E.

Enem starts 264I 264E, then 276I 276E then sollid lifter ones and go into the 280 duration range.

Piper has some for the saab in the 280+ range, if the scavenging was not helped by increased duration, they would not be making a lot more power and helping top end breathing so much.

Even the DSM's and many other FI cars go with higher duration along with higher lift and if it hurt performance, they would leave duration alone and the t5 cams with longer duration would not make another 20bhp than the 241 duration of the t7 cams.

There is a much older 88 9k that had even higher duration than the t5 cams and the main reason the cams got milder and milder with less duration is to make the cars more and more emmissions friendly.

John

 

Piper has some for the saab in the 280+ range, if the scavenging was not helped by increased duration, they would not be making a lot more power and helping top end breathing so much.

John

Where you have found Piper Cams for Saab? I can not find them from their web-site.

 

Yeah - in my workshop I have a pair of B202 cams for my cheap and cheerful upgrade.

John - slight twist in your statement is that T7 cams are smaller duration and smaller lift. (8.13mm vs 8.65)
BUT the important point you make is that all high spec turbo cams have longer duration than standard.

T7 : 231 8.31
T5 : 240 8.65
B202: 252 8.65

The B202s are known to offer a bit more go again than the T5 so for the money they are worth fitting.

And the numbers above are only a guide as much depends on the lobe shape too. And we just don't have the info. on this. - Is most of the duration spent with a small amount of life, with a spike towards the max lift? (tall pointy lobe)
Or is the 'open' period of the cam spent with a good amount of lift (fat lobe)

Really not sure whether to fit faster cams to the GT3071r 0.86 now as it's managing 1.5bar by 3k rpm with T5 cams and is really quite drivable.

 

certainly agree with john about the theory/practice aspect of high duration. the dyno doesn't lie. i'd just like to know what the lift specs are for all the aftermarket cams. that's all i'm concerned with.

 

http://www.maptun.com/shopCategory.php?hl=114&cg=100

http://www.abbottracing.com/product/9000 Engine/Sports camshafts/

Thats about it really. Not much choice at all but then you can have anything you want if you go custom.

 

While on topic - anyone got even the remotest idea how much power might be found going from T5 to B202 with a GT3071r 0.86? From 240 to 254 duration - no lift change. 10-15bhp?

(assuming both cams are equally well dialled in)

 

And catcams

 

And Piper cams, which I think are in the 280 duration range and there are quite a few more cams on the enem site, maptun does not list the mechanical valve cams for our cars with 11.5 lift and over 276 duration.

Then there are the swedesspeed cams.

Here is link to enem,

Highest listed at 276 duration and 11.5 lift for solid lifter and 2.3 motor.

http://butiken.enem.se/katalog.asp?flik=sectionone

As you can see, the 264 duration is listed, but no 268, maybe maptun just thought that sounded better.

http://butiken.enem.se/katalog.asp?flik=sectionone

John

 

I believe I saw them listed on a few speedparts cars. Piper cams 298 duration and 12.5 lift with a 9500rpm rev limit

http://www.speedparts.se/txr/

John

 

Ok, They might be special made for this, not in catalog..

 

This is my point - by the time you get to the stage where no-one else has really tried them, you are pretty much custom and may as well get them made to your spec.

The most common cams by far are the 264 Enems and give a big uplift but still useable on the road. Any more than that and they will be a pig on the road...

 

The most common cams by far are the 264 Enems and give a big uplift but still useable on the road. Any more than that and they will be a pig on the road...

Would personally say cam timing has more to do with the issue than the cam profile itself and the 10.4/276 arent bad even for daily use. But ofcourse if you clock it in with "enough" lift at TDC idle will vanish same with normal driving will be "gutless". Clock slitly diffent and to much wont be lost from the top rpm but idle/normal driving back to a "normal" level. But as always its all add up to what one is after and what the desiered power band is located and what the use of the car is.

When spring arrives results will be in for half dozen 2.0 and 2.3 with both 10.4 and 9.6 cams.

 

all my input has been based on theory, not practice. so im very open minded to everything everyone has to say here.

so if your higher than 264 how is it not streetable? shitty idle? does it really get that lopey?

 

And here is my thought for a 'road' car (which I often state) with 'big' turbo

1st gear - pretty useless / small % of availble power
2nd gear - still can't put down 100% of power
3rd gear - can get 100% power down. Now if you turbo spools in as late as 4k rpm this means you are doing about 70mph before you really 'go'. You have 30mph left until you loose your license (in UK at least)

Now if I have my GT3071r with T5 cams, it's spooling very hard by 3k rpm so I get a wider spread. Yes - the fast cams are faster after about 95mph but you need to choose how you plan to drive the car.

On tight twisty roads a GT28RS with T5 cams will whip a GT3071r 0.86 with 264 cams as it's much more flexible and instant.

V-max stuff is great but it's much like having a dyno-queen on the rolling road that doesn't turn into a fun fast everyday road car.

 

I had my 3076 putting down all the power I could get up to traction limits, about 12-14psi in second gear.

I think the .86ar turbine housing is laggy, but the 3071wg .64 ar with stock cams would give the gt28rs a run for its money in tight twisty roads.

Then there is gearing, if the gearing is right, even a 500whp becomes very fast with instant throttle response and much more power. If you look at the nordic car with 490whp and the quiafe 6 speed you can see the lag of the big turbo is not there, its all about weight and gearing when talking of big power from a big turbo.

Then the application, drag racing still likes a short gear-box as demonstrated by nordic and their short gear box, large turbo combination, but for highway racing and standing mile stuff is more suited to the stock gear-box and large turbo and enem cams.

Pick your flavor:
John

 

Was just going to reply just as John wrote the gearing is in key role to have the motors power band fit better for the desired use. The GT28 is really any more instant, it just offers a powerband with full tq from below 3k rpm to 5krpm or so and naturally if you compare it to the 3071 in area where the 3071 is not capable of delivering full boost it will be more laggy. Just the same as 15T offers full tq from 2000 to 4500, making it real good choice for a slow and twisty road, fun to drive when full tq in 3rd is available from 50km/h.

Anyhow as written above the it all adds up to what one is after and just aiming for high bhp without a tought "do i need this" can result to dissapointment if you have no use or cannot utilize the powerband the built motor functions in.

In my oppinion the 9k with the long box is no good for daily purposes with a larger tbo since a suitable gear for a twisty road nor race lauch form highway speed isnt available and 3rd is so long that 100++ km/h is needed to get it going. The 3.82 final will somewhat improve the situation but still quit long, 4.05 is my choice (kicks in low enough and carries to 170+), but then there is the 4.45 final which allows full tq to wheels from 80km/h in 3rd even with a 4000rpm to 7k powerband. The available 6-speeds as John wrote can be used to further enhance this area, but they also ask for a bit more money.

 

After actually driving a 9k with 4:45 final drive with larger turbo, I am sold on that combination. I have been thinking very hard about building a 5 speed gear box with 4:45 final drive combined with LSD.

This gives close to quiafe 6 speed gearing without the 6th gear, which I think I could live without since we were able to run 160mph+ with 7k rev limit and 4:45 final drive on the 9k on the back straights of the road race track in Montana.

I figure I could build this set-up for about 1600.00 US dollars and I feel the shorter gearing is responsible for keeping the stress on the gear-box down and when combined with a LSD, I think the box would be fairly reliable.

To build the quiafe 6 speed, you just get the gears, have to use the same pinsion gear and input/output shafts from the stock gear-box, so then you have a gear-box that cost around 4200-4500 in parts when you add in the LSD. I have heard its not the gears that usually break, its the pinion shaft or pinion gear teeth, so with the 6 speed, its the stock one in the box. You would get the overdrive so to speak with the 6th gear, but I don't feel that is worth an extra 2500 bucks.

So, build a 4:45 final drive gear box for 1600-2k or build a 6 speed for 4200-4600 bucks.

John

 

the gears do go
I have knowledge of 4th and 5 th being stripped by a 400 +hp engine

you are right that the crown wheel and pinion are weak (I have done 2 )
But quaife will make you a beefy cwp to suit (I have one ...)

My belief is that the high final drive puts a lot of torque strain on the box

I had a 4.05 fd and had only one failure in 100,000 miles
the 3.66 fd was always breaking

so I have 4.05 fd in the quaife box

but I like your idea ..If I was building a track hack I would start with a 4.45 box
less torque strain,plentifull supply ,cheap as chips
and with a 7 k red line it gives you a decent top whack

 

the gears do go
I have knowledge of 4th and 5 th being stripped by a 400 +hp engine

you are right that the crown wheel and pinion are weak (I have done 2 )
But quaife will make you a beefy cwp to suit (I have one ...)

My belief is that the high final drive puts a lot of torque strain on the box

I had a 4.05 fd and had only one failure in 100,000 miles
the 3.66 fd was always breaking

so I have 4.05 fd in the quaife box

but I like your idea ..If I was building a track hack I would start with a 4.45 box
less torque strain,plentifull supply ,cheap as chips
and with a 7 k red line it gives you a decent top whack

That is good information, you feel even with the high 4:45 final drive, the gears themselves may be the next point to break along with the pinion. I was thinking of cryo-treating the gear set and input/output shafts, pinion and then trying to see how that would hold up.

I wish the quiafe offered the whole set, like they did in the na version for about the same price. That would convince me to try the gear-set.

Maybe I will talk to them and get the cwp and then combine the final drive of the 4.45 with some treated gears and see how it holds up to my abuse.

John

 

I agree completely with all of you John, Vigge, Ylee and Faero.
The stock 9000 long gearing is useless for everyday driving, most of my driving is at 60-70km/h. However the long box provides some very good accelerating from 70km/h in 2nd gear, it makes the car really quite hard to beat in a race. The problem with that is my 2nd gear stripped from the input shaft damaging the rest of the gears one day while still using a reduced boost limit up til red line most probable cause is overloading from the high diff ratio. I think if the oppotunity arise for a V6 ng900 box I will snap it up and fit the 4.45 gearing. My 2 cents

 

I think the new quaife gearkit comes with both input and outshafts as well as a crownwheel for 3200 USD. Does it not?

 

I have been told the picture on the website is of the old na gear-set with input/output and crown wheel, to bad its so tight together, you could See Robert go through all 6 gears in the 1/4 mile.

I have been told my the us rep and others, the new quiafe gear-set is only the gears, no input/output or the crown or the lsd. You do get the end-cap though.

You would still need the crown wheel, re-use the pinion shaft and have to buy a LSD. By the time you build it and or have it built, it could easily be a 6000.00 USD Price

I think I will build a 4:45 final drive 5 speed with LSD and see how it holds up.

John