i wish i had some answers, but all i have is more questions 
Turbo on non-turbo 16V keeping LH and EZK?
Some of you know that I've contemplated converting one of my 8V n/a cars to a turbo car by adding the spare rebuilt turbo left over from when I had my 83 turbo car running.
Anyway, I was wondering about adding it to the engine of my 16V n/a car instead. That particular car is an 89 build-year car with LH 2.4 fuel injection and EZK for ignition timing control.
How feasible is it to simply replace the exhaust manifold, etc. to adapt with the turbo, add the required oil feed and drain hoses, and replace the stock distributor with the version used on turbo 16V engines?
I can see one issue straight away which is that the engine has the ignition sensor on the crankshaft rather that in the distributor.
Has anyone done this sort of mod WITHOUT replacing any of the Bosch electronics for fuel or ignition control? Will the stock LH 2.4 system be ok when a turbo is added? I'm sure the EZK will handle is since it does automagic knock detection, and should (theoretically) compensate for what the turbo does (within limits).
I don't expect that I'd get a lot from the turbo (perhaps 5 to maybe 10 psi at the most), but I'm sure plenty of you can offer advice on what will/won't need changing besides the obvious things on the intake/exhaust sides of the engine related to piping, etc. It would also give me the opportunity to install an intercooler at the same time.
So tell me if you think this is something that's doable, and what complications could you forsee happening as a result?
Craig.
PS. I suppose that eventually I could look to go the Megasquirt route but I don't want to jump through too many hoops at once.
Anyway, I was wondering about adding it to the engine of my 16V n/a car instead. That particular car is an 89 build-year car with LH 2.4 fuel injection and EZK for ignition timing control.
How feasible is it to simply replace the exhaust manifold, etc. to adapt with the turbo, add the required oil feed and drain hoses, and replace the stock distributor with the version used on turbo 16V engines?
I can see one issue straight away which is that the engine has the ignition sensor on the crankshaft rather that in the distributor.
Has anyone done this sort of mod WITHOUT replacing any of the Bosch electronics for fuel or ignition control? Will the stock LH 2.4 system be ok when a turbo is added? I'm sure the EZK will handle is since it does automagic knock detection, and should (theoretically) compensate for what the turbo does (within limits).
I don't expect that I'd get a lot from the turbo (perhaps 5 to maybe 10 psi at the most), but I'm sure plenty of you can offer advice on what will/won't need changing besides the obvious things on the intake/exhaust sides of the engine related to piping, etc. It would also give me the opportunity to install an intercooler at the same time.
So tell me if you think this is something that's doable, and what complications could you forsee happening as a result?
Craig.
PS. I suppose that eventually I could look to go the Megasquirt route but I don't want to jump through too many hoops at once.
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Same as, all I have are more questions.
Have you looked at EvanD's conversion? He posted on saabcentral, not sure if he's on here also.
If someone had done the mod, without replacing any fuelling or ignition components, I think a lot of people would have done it.
Why would you keep the ezk ignition, but change the distributor. What would this achieve?
Why did saab not leave ezk on the turbo cars?
You need to do a lot more searching.
Have you looked at EvanD's conversion? He posted on saabcentral, not sure if he's on here also.
If someone had done the mod, without replacing any fuelling or ignition components, I think a lot of people would have done it.
Why would you keep the ezk ignition, but change the distributor. What would this achieve?
Why did saab not leave ezk on the turbo cars?
You need to do a lot more searching.
my take on it:
first of all, NA cars have a much higher compression ratio, so running more than 12psi is a risk,, personally id run it at base boost (5-7psi) its entire life.
secondly, id bet you could do it with the stock jetronic system, jetronic knows nothing of boost, only of airflow. this is true even on the turbo cars.
however i would put larger (turbo) injectors in, and have an air/fuel meeter installed to check for leaning out.
to do the conversion correctly you would also need an intercooler, and nessicary pipeing
its also worth noteing that the turbos had oil coolers, and stronger (if youd like to call them strong) transmissions.
theres more to a turbo car than the turbo, i think it would be easyer, and probably cheaper and more worth your time in the long run to find a turbo car with a blown turbo, and use the unit you have as a replacement.
or, if your 89 has a particularly nice body, find a who turbo car for parts, and swap the moter/trans as one unit from a crashed one.
and then do the wireing harness/ECUs while you at it.
first of all, NA cars have a much higher compression ratio, so running more than 12psi is a risk,, personally id run it at base boost (5-7psi) its entire life.
secondly, id bet you could do it with the stock jetronic system, jetronic knows nothing of boost, only of airflow. this is true even on the turbo cars.
however i would put larger (turbo) injectors in, and have an air/fuel meeter installed to check for leaning out.
to do the conversion correctly you would also need an intercooler, and nessicary pipeing
its also worth noteing that the turbos had oil coolers, and stronger (if youd like to call them strong) transmissions.
theres more to a turbo car than the turbo, i think it would be easyer, and probably cheaper and more worth your time in the long run to find a turbo car with a blown turbo, and use the unit you have as a replacement.
or, if your 89 has a particularly nice body, find a who turbo car for parts, and swap the moter/trans as one unit from a crashed one.
and then do the wireing harness/ECUs while you at it.
knock protectionphilb said:Why would you keep the ezk ignition, but change the distributor. What would this achieve?
Look at the turbo/na faq gorper wrote up on saabcentral has some basic info:
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110394
I think so few have done this because people like to talk them out of it.
On a newer c900 this is a pretty damn easy project to get the car running with some boost. Getting it really tuned in well might be where the challenge lies.
And as I suggested before, don't do this if the car is an only car/daily driver.
On a newer c900 this is a pretty damn easy project to get the car running with some boost. Getting it really tuned in well might be where the challenge lies.
And as I suggested before, don't do this if the car is an only car/daily driver.
one thing to keep in mind is that with the car being an 89 it has a lot of different things done ignition/fuel wise compared to other models. 1 year only coil and I think the MAF might be one year only IIRC.
I know, I've read that. I know the EZK provides knock detection. But I think that FAQ is suggesting going with the turbo's ignition system and ditching the ezk. Knock protection would be run by the apc.knock protection
Look at the turbo/na faq gorper wrote up on saabcentral has some basic info:
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110394
He also suggests at the end, a less involved conversion which leaves out the apc, and leaves the standard distributor.
On my conversion, I'm running about 10.5:1 CR at 11 psi (TE05) on 91 octane fuel; no APC. Engine has about 25k miles on it with no troubles. Had the head off (for an oil leak) this summer - no signs of detonation. Volvo Turbo ECU/AMM/injectors. Block is bored mid-80s b2xx w/b212 pistons, b204 head, b212 intake mani.
I'm not up on my earlier gearboxes, but I do know that the later ones are identical, Turbo or not; only difference is the primary covers on account of different motor mounts. Unless Saab's technical manual is wrong. (Outside of U.S., things are different T vs NA.)
At that link, I'm not suggesting running a Turbo ignition only; I'm suggesting running the EZK box for advance, and let the Turbo distributor retard timing under boost. You defeat the Turbo distributor's ability to mechanically (actually, pneumatically) change advance and let EZK do it.
The EZK/NA timing curve is not designed to retard under boost; the Turbo distributor does this for you.
It's not a perfect solution. But it's cheap if you can get parts from a u-pull-it, and so far I haven't had any troubles with it.
Of course, as in all things in life, YMMV...
I'm not up on my earlier gearboxes, but I do know that the later ones are identical, Turbo or not; only difference is the primary covers on account of different motor mounts. Unless Saab's technical manual is wrong. (Outside of U.S., things are different T vs NA.)
At that link, I'm not suggesting running a Turbo ignition only; I'm suggesting running the EZK box for advance, and let the Turbo distributor retard timing under boost. You defeat the Turbo distributor's ability to mechanically (actually, pneumatically) change advance and let EZK do it.
The EZK/NA timing curve is not designed to retard under boost; the Turbo distributor does this for you.
It's not a perfect solution. But it's cheap if you can get parts from a u-pull-it, and so far I haven't had any troubles with it.
Of course, as in all things in life, YMMV...
Sorry about that, I had not read your FAQ in full before posting. Stupid.
Its interesting that the ezk can cope with the base timing being changed, I'd have thought that would have caused it problems. I'm going to guess that the vac capsule retards the timing quicker than the ezk advances back to the knock threshold, so it works out overall.
Regarding gearboxes, does the primary cover account for the first digit of the gearbox number? It would seem to tie in with 900aeros description which says that digit is "gearbox fitting".
Its interesting that the ezk can cope with the base timing being changed, I'd have thought that would have caused it problems. I'm going to guess that the vac capsule retards the timing quicker than the ezk advances back to the knock threshold, so it works out overall.
Regarding gearboxes, does the primary cover account for the first digit of the gearbox number? It would seem to tie in with 900aeros description which says that digit is "gearbox fitting".
15 psi 10:1 compression with ezk ftmfw
There is no APC in a non-turbo 16V car so that would be an addition as well as adding the turbo, etc.I know, I've read that. I know the EZK provides knock detection. But I think that FAQ is suggesting going with the turbo's ignition system and ditching the ezk. Knock protection would be run by the apc.
He also suggests at the end, a less involved conversion which leaves out the apc, and leaves the standard distributor.
My aim was to add on a turbo and not add too much more, otherwise it'd be better to jump straight to a Megasquirt style of setup IMHO. My car has the crankshaft-mounted sensor instead of the distributor-mounted version, so that gives more accurate sensing of the rotational position of the engine, so unless there is some technical reason why EZK would not automatically take care of managing the ignition timing when a turbo is added, that would be the best way to go to start off with, and should the end result not be very good, other things could be looked at.
Changing the distributor to one originally intended for a 16V turbo engine wouldn't be a problem and since the internal hall sensor of the distributor wouldn't be used (but could be utilised for other things like data-logging and comparing against the crankshaft sensor signals), that could be ignored.
The trans in my 16V n/a car is an auto, and it's a really good one, so I'd prefer to keep it since I don't have any manual transmissions on hand that I know are in top-notch condition.
Craig.
swap
no one has really adresses fueling yet, yes the LH just measures airflow but the fuel maps only go so high, two esentials of this swap are a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, and a wideband o2 sensor with quage. You are only going to be able to safely run 7psi give or take due to the na engines high compression, but, since it is such a high compression engine, with only 7psi it will fly. Dont worry about the APC stuff, bolt the turbo manifold, turbo, oil lines, Intercooler, etc on, do the above mentioned turbo distributor advance neutering, bolt on a new rrfpr, use the o2 sensor to dial it in. Id still set the baseboost to 0 or 1psi and use a manual boost controll valve to get the desired boost.
no one has really adresses fueling yet, yes the LH just measures airflow but the fuel maps only go so high, two esentials of this swap are a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, and a wideband o2 sensor with quage. You are only going to be able to safely run 7psi give or take due to the na engines high compression, but, since it is such a high compression engine, with only 7psi it will fly. Dont worry about the APC stuff, bolt the turbo manifold, turbo, oil lines, Intercooler, etc on, do the above mentioned turbo distributor advance neutering, bolt on a new rrfpr, use the o2 sensor to dial it in. Id still set the baseboost to 0 or 1psi and use a manual boost controll valve to get the desired boost.
The LH is the same system on turbo/non turbo, so there is no reason it can't fuel to higher boost levels just like the other cars. And you don't need APC becasue the EZK can control knocking with ignition timing.
Wideband o2 is definetly recommened but this swap can be done and will work perfectly at normal boost levels. Anything above stock (11 and up) you may run into detonation issues, becasue of the high compression. 11 psi on that engine would absolutely tear ass though!
Wideband o2 is definetly recommened but this swap can be done and will work perfectly at normal boost levels. Anything above stock (11 and up) you may run into detonation issues, becasue of the high compression. 11 psi on that engine would absolutely tear ass though!
I'd be happy to get the same sort of boost out of the 16V n/a engine as I currently get with the 8V 81 turbo car (about 8 to 9 max before knocking - car has no intercooler at present). If I was ever to lift the engine I'd look at replacing it with a lower compression version so help with the turbo functionality but for now, the current block can stay.The LH is the same system on turbo/non turbo, so there is no reason it can't fuel to higher boost levels just like the other cars. And you don't need APC becasue the EZK can control knocking with ignition timing.
Wideband o2 is definetly recommened but this swap can be done and will work perfectly at normal boost levels. Anything above stock (11 and up) you may run into detonation issues, becasue of the high compression. 11 psi on that engine would absolutely tear ass though!
Is the O2 sensor swap a trivial affair? How does the 'wideband' sensor affect the behaviour of the EZK and/or LH electronics if running under a pressurised intake situation when a turbo is spooled up? And what makes it different to the standard oxygen sensor?
I just need to get myself a T16 exhaust manifold and some different exhaust parts (downpipe, etc.) then I'd be able to start planning how to fit everything to the engine. I have a spare oil feed and drain pipe combo still attached to the 8V turbo block in the 83 turbo car I'm pulling apart.
Craig.
LH can run with no o2 sensor at all, it just gets worse mileage. I am not sure but I believe you would want a second bung for a second sensor if you wanted a wideband guage.I'd be happy to get the same sort of boost out of the 16V n/a engine as I currently get with the 8V 81 turbo car (about 8 to 9 max before knocking - car has no intercooler at present). If I was ever to lift the engine I'd look at replacing it with a lower compression version so help with the turbo functionality but for now, the current block can stay.
Is the O2 sensor swap a trivial affair? How does the 'wideband' sensor affect the behaviour of the EZK and/or LH electronics if running under a pressurised intake situation when a turbo is spooled up? And what makes it different to the standard oxygen sensor?
I just need to get myself a T16 exhaust manifold and some different exhaust parts (downpipe, etc.) then I'd be able to start planning how to fit everything to the engine. I have a spare oil feed and drain pipe combo still attached to the 8V turbo block in the 83 turbo car I'm pulling apart.
Craig.
The stock LH system should be able to handle up to 12 psi or so, anything past that you really want to look into better fueling (bigger injectors, tuned chips, megasquirt, whatever)
I would like to reiterate that the only reason turbo's had low c/r's is so the engine can safely be ran on regular octane gasoline. The extra 1 point of compression would make the car have much more useable power and not really cause any negative effects besides requiring a lower boost level, which is not applicable in this situation since you stated you want to run as much as your 8v, which is 8 or 9. If you had this engine properly fueled with the high c/r and a front mount intercooler, you could probably get up into the high teens of boost no problem. The EZK will greately help with this.
Well this is finally going to happen.... Back to SYdney for a couple of weeks next month for some annual leave and I'm lining up to get the remaining parts I need so I can substitute all the n/a parts for the turbo parts and get the engine re-configured. I found a post on how to mod the vac capsule to prevent it doing vac advance but still do retard under boost.
One thing I was wondering with this - since the vac capsule will be joined to the intake manifold direct would it be better to use signalling from the EZK box to control an Apc solenoid solely for the purpose of controlling what the vac capsule's retard function or just leave it as is without adding more complexity to the system?
Craig.
One thing I was wondering with this - since the vac capsule will be joined to the intake manifold direct would it be better to use signalling from the EZK box to control an Apc solenoid solely for the purpose of controlling what the vac capsule's retard function or just leave it as is without adding more complexity to the system?
Craig.
maybe a oneway valve like on your Valve cover, inline with the Vac line to the vaccum advance capsule. it cant advance without vaccum right?
That's a very good idea - and simple too. Those PCV's are cheap to source.maybe a oneway valve like on your Valve cover, inline with the Vac line to the vaccum advance capsule. it cant advance without vaccum right?
Other thing I'm mulling on is the oil feed and drain arrangement. I know people talk about tapping into the block to add this, though I'm reluctant to do that and it could be better to just pull the engine out. ANother idea I came up with is that when I replace the oil filter housing with the turbo version, it has ports to run to the engine oil cooler and maybe the feed line to the oil cooler could provide the oil feed tap-off to the turbo, but I think the turbo oil filter housings have some sort of thermostat arrangement to prevent flow of oil to the the cooler until a certain temp.
The turbo would heat up a lot quicker IMHO so that may not be very good, but at least it would remove the need to tap a hole in the block. I'm going to check later and see if my car's engine has the hole already with a plug in it (which would solve that issue straight away), otherwise tapping off the oil feed to the engine oil cooler could be a good solution. I have a spare oil feed pipe off an 8V turbo car I pulled apart so would like to use that if I can.
Have to look at the oil return too.
Otherwise I think I'm getting all the bases covered with sourcing the remaining parts. Located some 16V turbo dists and have the modding info to knobble the vac capsule's vac-advance function now.
Got my contact Steve at Saab Salvage in Sydney getting me an exhaust manifold, downpipe, etc.
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
- This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Saab Link Forums
A forum community dedicated to Saab owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Recommended Communities
