Melted piston...need help

mike d · Nov 4, 2009

mike saunders said:
....so says the guy who has hung out his tuning shingle for two whole weeks.

Another month and you'll have figured out nuclear fission, right?

Although ive only been advertising for two weeks, ive been a technician for more than 5 years, working on everything from honda marine motors, and lawn mowers. to vintage triumphs, Mercedes, and porches, even up to more modern motorcycles.

simply because i'm new to advertising my tuning work, doesn't mean i lack the knowledge, or ability to do a good job.

id bet not many people here have ever had to synchronize a quad carb setup...

mike saunders · Nov 4, 2009

mike d said:
if you want to diag bad injctors, you can start buy simply Ohm testing them,, gennerally when one injector fails, it will ohm out slightly different than the others. This test is not 100%, but its wicked easy, and could give a clue onto what next step to take

second thing even before flow testing, is to do a bench test,, yank the rail of the motor with all the injectors still attached, and crank the car over.. this will cause all the injectors to fire, and fuel to squirt out, at this time you can view how they spray, and make a judgment call

All that test will tell you is whether the injector is completely fucked, or not.

If your eyes can determine the flow difference between injectors spraying 83cc, 74cc, 68cc, and 53cc -- as happened with the engine pictured above -- then you're in the wrong business. With those eyes, you should be helping astronomers save money on telescopes.

miked said:
Although ive only been advertising for two weeks, ive been a technician for more than 5 years, working on everything from honda marine motors, and lawn mowers. to vintage triumphs, Mercedes, and porches, even up to more modern motorcycles.

simply because i'm new to advertising my tuning work, doesn't mean i lack the knowledge, or ability to do a good job.

No one is saying that you're bad because you're new, or that you lack Saab knowledge, but you can understand why folks would likely take their chances with a guy who is employed by a race team as a tuner.

But I honestly wish you luck.

One of the downsides of the whole Tuner Warz nonsense is that people have found that there's a good deal to be gained by disparaging the work of others. That was the model of one relatively new person, who established a working relationship with an established tuner to get access to his work, then started directly competing with him and disparaging his work. A bit of karma was at work there, because an even newer tuner established a similar relationship with that new person...and the same happened.

There's a lot of the same stuff happening...but that shouldn't detract from the main aim of the thread, which is to make Swedes car whole again, and to keep the same problem from occurring.

mike d · Nov 4, 2009

mike saunders said:
If your eyes can determine the flow difference between injectors spraying 83cc, 74cc, 68cc, and 53cc, then you're in the wrong business. With those eyes, you should be helping astronomers save money on telescopes.

when one injector gets stuck completely open, or completely shut,, its pretty clear..

when theyre "slow" dribbles come out, its no longer a nice spray pattern. this is a clear deviation that can be viewed in real time,, your simply looking for a change from the other injectors present,, not the total flow rate

at the end of the day, this is diagnostic procedure, he needs to do some diagnostic or the issue will return,,, im not saying it is 100% software,, however we wont know untill more knowledge is gathered

you can also get an idea on flow using a fuel pressure gauge, and some jump wires, this is done buy pressurizing the rail via the fuel pump relay, then triggering the injector manualy, and watching the rate in which the pressure drops on the guage.

Most people lack tools like that, so that test is not one worth suggesting.

mike d · Nov 4, 2009

mike saunders said:
No one is saying that you're bad because you're new, or that you lack Saab knowledge, but you can understand why folks would likely take their chances with a guy who is employed by a race team as a tuner...

i do understand that,, But when multiple people have had clear and present issues with the work that has been done buy him, and that at times afterwards had issues dealing with them trying to get them to make it right,, its very discouraging.. the few times i have tryed to deal with Sqr clan, i have been nothing but disapointed with there customer relations,,, then afterwards finding out that there products seam to be worth way less that what people pay for them. is simply icing on the cake

although i have voiced negative comments about Sqr, i have also siad nothing but good things about guys like Jzw,, and jak stoll, (atleast for hardware) i have on multiple ocasions been around there work, and have been nothing but impressed with it..

im not looking at everybody else with the "they all suck because there not me" attitude, there are many others doing quite good work,,,, which is all the more reason to not go with the people who are not.

mike saunders · Nov 4, 2009

mike d said:
when one injector gets stuck completely open, or completely shut,, its pretty clear..

when theyre "slow" dribbles come out, its no longer a nice spray pattern. this is a clear deviation that can be viewed in real time,, your simply looking for a change from the other injectors present,, not the total flow rate

at the end of the day, this is diagnostic procedure, he needs to do some diagnostic or the issue will return,,, im not saying it is 100% software,, however we wont know untill more knowledge is gathered

you can also get an idea on flow using a fuel pressure gauge, and some jump wires, this is done buy pressurizing the rail via the fuel pump relay, then triggering the injector manualy, and watching the rate in which the pressure drops on the guage.

Most people lack tools like that, so that test is not one worth suggesting.

Mike, nothing you've described would diagnose the problem that Mark had, nor would it prevent the damage that ensued.

An eyeball guesstimate of dribbles vs. a spray? No sir.

Someone who spends a couple of grand upgrading their car isn't going to go all Walmart and ignore a real bench flow test...

If you read his above post, he was using BRAND NEW INJECTORS.

mike saunders · Nov 4, 2009

mike d said:
i do understand that,, But when multiple people have had clear and present issues with the work that has been done buy him, and that at times afterwards had issues dealing with them trying to get them to make it right,, its very discouraging.. the few times i have tryed to deal with Sqr clan, i have been nothing but disapointed with there customer relations,,, then afterwards finding out that there products seam to be worth way less that what people pay for them. is simply icing on the cake

Mike, what you're describing is a personality beef with the guys at Automotion, the distributor of SQR...which is a separate issue from the work of SQR itself.

mike saunders · Nov 4, 2009

mike d said:
although i have voiced negative comments about Sqr, i have also siad nothing but good things about guys like Jzw,, and jak stoll, (atleast for hardware) i have on multiple ocasions been around there work, and have been nothing but impressed with it..

[comment removed for Tuner Warz de-escalation]

mike d · Nov 4, 2009

i missed the part about it them being brand new injectors,, my bad..
But new parts still fail.

a failed injector is pretty clear when viewing a spray pattern.
especially when there are 3 others beside it that are working properly.

you can all it a personal beef, which it may be,, but i know i am far from alone in my distaste for them

Wonder where these maps came from?? what is that supposed to mean??

mike saunders · Nov 4, 2009

mike d said:
i missed the part about it them being brand new injectors,, my bad..
But new parts still fail.

a failed injector is pretty clear when viewing a spray pattern.
especially when there are 3 others beside it that are working properly.

you can all it a personal beef, which it may be,, but i know i am far from alone in my distaste for them

Wonder where these maps came from?? what is that supposed to mean??

Mike, if you read the link that Mark attached, there's a full rundown of the issue. It wasn't an all-or-nothing issue with the injector. The numbers I posted were the actual tested flow numbers prior to cleaning.

Again, there's no way to just eyeball a 10cc/min difference in flow rates, and especially since NONE of the injectors were operating properly.

Personalities are personalities, and they all differ. Some folks don't like a particular approach. Others looks past it. For others, it's the key part of deciding on a business relationship...

And please disregard the deleted comment about the maps. It's not pertinent to the thread, nor to the issue, and it's ancient history. In terms of Tuner Warz timeline, it would be the Greeks vs. the Persians at Thermopylae.

It doesn't help the OP get his car back on the road.

mike d · Nov 4, 2009

mike saunders said:
Mike, if you read the link that Mark attached, there's a full rundown of the issue. It wasn't an all-or-nothing issue with the injector. The numbers I posted were the actual tested flow numbers prior to cleaning.

Again, there's no way to just eyeball a 10cc/min difference in flow rates, and especially since NONE of the injectors were operating properly.

And please disregard the deleted comment about the maps. It's not pertinent to the thread, nor to the issue, and it's ancient history. In terms of Tuner Warz timeline, it would be the Greeks vs. the Persians at Thermopylae.

i will go back and re-read the thread,, i skipped a large part of the war heat assuming there was a lack of diagnostic work done. in doing that it sounds like i missed something important..

mike saunders · Nov 4, 2009

mike d said:
i will go back and re-read the thread,, i skipped a large part of the war heat assuming there was a lack of diagnostic work done. in doing that it sounds like i missed something important..

No worries, man....There were a lot of things that didn't come up until a lot of shit had passed.

Swede only posted pictures hours later, and then added info that he had a new Walbro OEM insert installed, and a new check valve and relay done.

EDIT: Also...take a look at the difference between cyls 1 and 3,4 in the OP's pics...

If it was a system-wide leaning, I'd expect ALL the pistons and intake valves to likely have the same relative amount of carbon deposition, but 1 was clean as a whistle and 3 and 4 had the deposits you'd expect in a 125K mile car.

Moonracer · Nov 4, 2009

keep in mind cyl 1 had oil burning through it cleaning the carbon out. I'm tired of pushing your buttons, but, you've obviously not seen too many engines run with burnt pistons. The main jest of this whole tread is more the fact that they unwilling to help if something happens. This has been talked about noumerous times before.

Now another thing to think about, stock programming would have backed off boost, timming, ect. when pre-ignition(knock) was detected and this most likely wouldn't have happened. This to me seems to lead to the fact that the tune took out any safty nets to over come hardwear issues.

DanF. · Nov 4, 2009

Moonracer said:
keep in mind cyl 1 had oil burning through it cleaning the carbon out. I'm tired of pushing your buttons, but, you've obviously not seen too many engines run with burnt pistons. The main jest of this whole tread is more the fact that they unwilling to help if something happens. This has been talked about noumerous times before.

Now another thing to think about, stock programming would have backed off boost, timming, ect. when pre-ignition(knock) was detected and this most likely wouldn't have happened. This to me seems to lead to the fact that the tune took out any safty nets to over come hardwear issues.

Just making sure no one misses what this is all about.

Moonracer · Nov 4, 2009

Thank you

mike saunders · Nov 4, 2009

DanF. said:
Just making sure no one misses what this is all about.

ROFL. :wink:

keep in mind cyl 1 had oil burning through it cleaning the carbon out. I'm tired of pushing your buttons, but, you've obviously not seen too many engines run with burnt pistons. The main jest of this whole tread is more the fact that they unwilling to help if something happens. This has been talked about noumerous times before.

Now another thing to think about, stock programming would have backed off boost, timming, ect. when pre-ignition(knock) was detected and this most likely wouldn't have happened. This to me seems to lead to the fact that the tune took out any safty nets to over come hardwear issues.

Ok, Marty.

Stock programming would have been able to back off boost to one cylinder if that injector was bad.

Got it. I'm clear on that issue now.

Thanks for the button push.

Moonracer · Nov 4, 2009

Are you as dense in person as you seem on the net? The knock sensor would have heard the pre-ignition no matter what cyl. it was and started backing thing off. Keep in mind O-smart one, in Iowa where the OP lives we have corn gas, it will leave carbon, lots of it with conservitive driving. Why can't you get it through your head that the tune failed to compensate for any hardwear issues. YES there may be harwear issues, but a reputable tune would have had safty nets to save the engine.

zingZACH · Nov 4, 2009

Moonracer said:
keep in mind cyl 1 had oil burning through it cleaning the carbon out. I'm tired of pushing your buttons, but, you've obviously not seen too many engines run with burnt pistons. The main jest of this whole tread is more the fact that they unwilling to help if something happens. This has been talked about noumerous times before.

Now another thing to think about, stock programming would have backed off boost, timming, ect. when pre-ignition(knock) was detected and this most likely wouldn't have happened. This to me seems to lead to the fact that the tune took out any safty nets to over come hardwear issues.

Which didn't happen in Teddy's Viggen (he bought it with a blown motor from a different Marty). And yes, I realized T7 has MAF, but still... I don't believe the cause of failure has been determined with that car.

Stock tunes are not a failsafe. These sorts of failure happen... stock or not.

Moonracer · Nov 4, 2009

Exactly, no tune stock or aftermarket if perfect. And that is what I've been trying to get across all along. Just as there are folks here that are saying it's hardwear there are people saying it's softwear. Early T-7 cars did have piston issues, mostly because of weaker pistons, but hardwear issues caused it too. All of the T-7 cars with burnt pistons that we've seen here are a result of engine overheating. Everyone has had a belt pulley or belt break shortly before the piston burned. You can not imagine the responses to our question of how hot did the motor get before you stopped?

Back to the issue at hand, this is not some beater car that has shit thrown at it. It is a very well sorted and kept up car, as you can see from his additional posts when asked about certian things.

mike saunders · Nov 4, 2009

Moonracer said:
Are you as dense in person as you seem on the net? The knock sensor would have heard the pre-ignition no matter what cyl. it was and started backing thing off. Keep in mind O-smart one, in Iowa where the OP lives we have corn gas, it will leave carbon, lots of it with conservitive driving. Why can't you get it through your head that the tune failed to compensate for any hardwear issues. YES there may be harwear issues, but a reputable tune would have had safty nets to save the engine.

Dense? Surely you jest. *

If you've never seen a bone stock Viggen or 9-5 Aero with piston damage from leaning out, then you haven't seen enough Saabs pass through your doors; I'd suggest sticking to Massey Ferguson or John Deere repairs. Most gas sold nationwide is 10 percent ethanol -- or "corn gas" as you quaintly call it -- so that dog won't hunt.

mike saunders · Nov 4, 2009

Moonracer said:
Back to the issue at hand, this is not some beater car that has shit thrown at it. It is a very well sorted and kept up car, as you can see from his additional posts when asked about certian things.

Quick Q:

Marty, did your shop service this car? That would explain your extremely defensive posture and exceeding willingness to blame the software without actually checking out the hardware.

Just sayin'

Melted piston...need help

mike d

mike saunders

mike d

mike d

mike saunders

mike saunders

mike saunders

mike d

mike saunders

mike d

mike saunders

Moonracer

DanF.

Moonracer

mike saunders

Moonracer

zingZACH

Moonracer

mike saunders

mike saunders

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities