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SCS Tuning for T5??

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#62 ·
stromer said:
Just don't forget that my post said nothing of your product, and made no reference that my words had to do with t5suite or anything. In fact, you just validated my point that anybody can copy a stage tune for free, which was all I was trying to say in the first place.

I think you might be the one to relax. The thread had little to do with ecuproject, until you popped in. In fact it was quite peaceful with a discussion of the ethics behind copying. Now its gotten heated with instigations from YOU.

But back to the discussion going on before you dug up my post from the first page....

I would agree that there is nothing wrong with this guy from ebay charging a nominal fee to do the work for somebody, give the cost of the equipment and time to learn the process.
Click to expand...
You are right your post did not spell out the words T5suite or Ecuproject... the inference was there in the tone of the message.

Ok yes I agree I get heated sometimes over statements made but your post on that first page said it in clear text.

This doesn't really surprise me at all to see. The question is who will really buy it? I guess somebody that doesn't know that you can just download a ripped tune for free
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That right there does infer that there are stock piles of ripped tunes all over the internet which in fact is not the case.

I just get really irritated by the "inferred" accusations that come from SOME members who frequent this site. Allot of who are the very same people who spend hours a week on ECUPROJECT browsing around.

As an FYI.... there are some tuners who have even given written permission to use their files for comparison purposes and actively assist in the development of new software.

So I will agree to disagree with you and not waste my time in picking on you anymore.
 
#63 ·
let's keep this non-personal and try and not to jump to any conclusions or make assumptions about what people may or may not mean between the lines. k? this could be a really good discussion about ethics and all that.

personally, I feel that just because there isn't a sign posted someplace saying not to do something doesn't always make it legal or ethical.

take for instance, drugs laws. In NY, if a bunch of people are smoking a joint, and you pass a joint to someone, and the cops roll up, did you know they can charge you with sale? which is a lot different than unlawful possession which would be a ticket and no arresst!!! now, you might say "but I didn't know, there is no sign!"

but that doesn't matter if you knew, you still broke the law and most police are not sympathetic if you aren't a legal scholar and haven't read the 800+pages of laws.

Do you see my analogy? Let's not assume because tuner XYZ doesn't have a sticker on the box saying "no reproductions", doesn't mean it's automatically OK to reproduce, copy etc. On the same note, this does also bring up the point. Is pro tuner XYZ doing anything wrong by altering and reproducing SAAB's code?

Good topics for discussion. Again, let's not let this get locked down and let's keep cool heads.

Proceed....

also I am moving this to off topic since this really isn't a question to the vendor
 
#64 ·
abdukted1456 said:
Do you see my analogy? Let's not assume because tuner XYZ doesn't have a sticker on the box saying "no reproductions", doesn't mean it's automatically OK to reproduce, copy etc. On the same note, this does also bring up the point. Is pro tuner XYZ doing anything wrong by altering and reproducing SAAB's code?

Good topics for discussion. Again, let's not let this get locked down and let's keep cool heads.

Proceed....

also I am moving this to off topic since this really isn't a question to the vendor
Click to expand...
To answer the question on altering SAAB's code for the ECU and if a user or tuner is legally at fault by doing so I can answer that one easy.

I actually went to a lawyer that specializes in Intellectual property laws to discuss this very thing prior to starting the site with Drew. The way it breaks down is this.

Since it is an operational paramater that is being changed and not the actual core coding of the ECU there is no liability nor royalty owed to SAAb/GM for it.

In regards to pulling a tune from a tuned ECU there is no binding cotract that states you cannot do so from any of the tuners. I have done the research here as well. The principle of selling a tune done by someone else is an unethical practice for sure. However on the flip side you can also reason from an ethics stand point that to sell your Tuned ECU that you paid for could be construed as piracy as well.

Since now you effectively sold a tune made for your car to someone else and cut out the tuner in question. And resold their tune without their expressed consent.. hence pirating their tune and profiting from it.

There are always 2 sides to any coin when you deal with ethics...:)
 
#65 ·
good points. I sold my ECU separately when I sold my car, and never thought of it as piracy, just selling off things I don't need anymore. I think most reasonable people would see that as OK whereas copying the tune and burning ECU's of it not so OK. :lol: regardless of the legal definition.

interesting though. I wonder if any tuner has ever "gone after" anybody for selling their used ECU when they no longer have a need for it?

seems there are some clear areas and some gray areas, and some blurred by the fact that people make assumptions.

Steve, big respect for going to a lawyer and understanding it all before starting your site. :cool:
 
#66 ·
stevehayes01 said:
Since now you effectively sold a tune made for your car to someone else and cut out the tuner in question. And resold their tune without their expressed consent.. hence pirating their tune and profiting from it.
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That would be if you saved the tune, and were still using it.

Your version is like saying: if you bought a computer, and it came with windows, but then sold your computer, and left windows on it, that's pirating.
 
#68 ·
Red DIC said:
That would be if you saved the tune, and were still using it.

Your version is like saying: if you bought a computer, and it came with windows, but then sold your computer, and left windows on it, that's pirating.
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Taken is from the Windows XP EULA for computers shipped with XP on them as well as copies purchased Ala carte.

TRANSFER-Internal. You may move the Product to a different Workstation Computer. After the transfer, you
must completely remove the Product from the former Workstation Computer. Transfer to Third Party. The initial
user of the Product may make a one-time transfer of the Product to another end user. The transfer has to include
all component parts, media, printed materials, this EULA, and if applicable, the Certificate of Authenticity. The
transfer may not be an indirect transfer, such as a consignment. Prior to the transfer, the end user receiving the
transferred Product must agree to all the EULA terms. No Rental. You may not rent, lease, lend or provide
commercial hosting services to third parties with the Product.
Click to expand...
If you have a demo version or a trial version:

NOT FOR RESALE SOFTWARE. Product identified as "Not for Resale" or "NFR," may not be resold,
transferred or used for any purpose other than demonstration, test or evaluation.
Click to expand...
So it actually is against the law to leave it on the box with the exception of the 1 time transfer of the license which must include all media down to the case the CD came in.

Thats the point I was trying to make. The tuners do not put that type limitation on their products otherwise you would see more cases in court over it since it is a good chunk of change your talking about.

It was an illustrative point that I was trying to make.
 
#69 ·
stevehayes01 said:
Taken is from the Windows XP EULA for computers shipped with XP on them as well as copies purchased Ala carte.

If you have a demo version or a trial version:

So it actually is against the law to leave it on the box with the exception of the 1 time transfer of the license which must include all media down to the case the CD came in.

Thats the point I was trying to make. The tuners do not put that type limitation on their products otherwise you would see more cases in court over it since it is a good chunk of change your talking about.

It was an illustrative point that I was trying to make.
Click to expand...
Does ebay stop people from selling used computers with windows loaded on them?
If so, they're aiding in breaking the law, unless microsoft's EULA is illegal.
 
#71 ·
Damn it.

Some one just email the guy and ask if any physical modifications need to be done to the ECU and what they are. That should help us to to figure out how this guys is tuning ECUs, and whether or not he is using T5Suite.

Unless hes doing it though the CANBUS. But that takes a bit more know-how
 
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#72 ·
dan-the-kid said:
Damn it.

Some one just email the guy and ask if any physical modifications need to be done to the ECU and what they are. That should help us to to figure out how this guys is tuning ECUs, and whether or not he is using T5Suite.

Unless hes doing it though the CANBUS. But that takes a bit more know-how
Click to expand...
Already did.... no response to the 3 emails. However I do have his address now and will be double checking against the ECUPROJECT site member list.
 
#73 ·
Ah, Alright. Good to hear we are investigating this further then just making all these accusations and conclusions.
 
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#76 ·
I wonder where "tunes" stand as far as intellectual property. They're not works of art, they don't have distinct characteristics... I'm pretty sure what this means is that anyone can sell any variation of any tune, from any base, for whatever price they want. If you're mad this guy is selling tunes for $250, sell yours for $50. I will find someone selling them for $20, because I'm a super cheapskate. I am kind of stoked that my $950 spent on "professional" tunes is now "wasted" because JZW or any car-nut from anywhere can touch up other people's tunes and show that "professional" tunes aren't all that. It's a math equation people, not a hit pop song.

You guys think that the 300,000 people with identical hondata tunes (for example?) should be suing each other for coincidentally getting the same parameters and settings?

(I especially liked the part about being spoon-fed information, since people jumped the hell down my throat for asking why we have the only engines that don't benefit from aggressive camshafts. Oh right, because the tuners said so. I'm glad someone shares my skepticism.)
 
#77 ·
The property laws as they relate to Tunes is very gray. If a tuner where to put any type of copy protection on it then it then it would be 100% illegal.




The ultimate model is the one used by CObb and other Scooby tuners.

Buy Hardware + The Tunes are free

So you spend $600 on the Cobb Access Point and software and any tune you want is 100% free... so you can download a Stage 1-5.. spec'd for what ever turbo you want to run etc..... then take it to a dyno and dial it in.


The other issue with Tuning files is that no matter what when you look at files they are all fairly close so the lines are very fine. The differences in the tunes is as subtle as tuning for a 3.5 bar vs. a 3.0 Bar FPR in some cases and the rest of the files are 99.5% identical.


I think that once the T7Suite is done this will no longer be an issue.. then it will be time to start on the T8Suite..lol
 
#78 ·
(I'm just making conversation, throwing points out there, devils advocate type stuff. Hoping for civil conversation, and not looking for a fight)


Steve, In an earlier post you mentioned that charging a fee for your time to flash the provided T5 Suite was ok in the $40-60 range, but not in the $250 range. Where does that line get drawn? If someone is willing to pay $250 for the time to flash a t5suite tune, how is that any different than someone willing to pay $120+/hr for labor at a dealership instead of the $60/hr labor at an indy mechanic?


Technically, the tunes within t5suite are copyright dilemma and any of the t5 suite developers who programmed it. Now I haven't looked at the t5suite EULA / Copyright notification... but it would be up to the copyright owners to determine how and by whom those specific tunes may be used. From my experience in the open-source programming world, you have various license types (BSD/GPL/CC etc). And I would think that a Creative Commons type license would be best applicable to the tunes that are included with t5suite. (Ability to redisribute and share, but not for commercial purposes). This would set a legal precedence that you cannot SELL the tune, but you CAN sell/lease time to flash the tune, thus forcing would-be tuners to
1) Make their own custom tune (which can be "diffed" against any other stage tune to prove the binary is unique)
2) Advertise the t5suite staged tunes as freely available, but charge a flashing service.


I'm a believer in open markets..

If it becomes acceptable within the community to charge for the flashing service, and it is legally acceptable due to the licensing of both t5suite and the stage tuned files... then people like Jessop could offer "T5 flashing service" and set their own prices for flashing. Whether it is $50 or $250 for the service. With the barrier to entry fairly minimal, more enterprising people would buy the BDM's and offer similar services. This would create competition and cause the price for the service to drop and stay in the $50 range or less (as in an open market, there will ALWAYS be someone to undercut you based on price alone).

This will then cause these people to differentiate themselves by creating their own custom tunes and offering ancillary services, thus growing the T5 tuning community.




My point of contention is this... if companies like SCS are selling Staged Tunes, and there is not the proper license restrictions in place... then get the license restrictions cleared up. AND educate the world by flooding their marketplace with cheaper tunes marketed as a flashing service.


I don't see why Jessop and others that have the BDM's and t5suite software don't throw up ebay auctions right next to these guys and say "T5 Stage 1,2,3,4,5 tunes, flashed for $100!" And explain t5suite provides freely available stage tunes, and you'll flash them for a fee of $x for any stage. People are lazy, and getting the BDM won't be worth the investment to them (as exhibited by the $free.99 requests for flashes), so the market will find a service fee price that it can sustain.
 
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