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Old 12-29-2011, 01:55 PM   #341
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i dont think its the people of china who dont care for quality, its the greedy execs who tell them to make the shit as cheap as possible so they can turn a profit
This is the heart of the problem. 'Problem' being relative.
China is asked for cheap product. China complies. Its pretty simple, really. If china were asked for superior product, they are savvy manufacturers. I'm positive they can comply just fine. They perfected little things we hold dear, such as metalurgy, porcelain, and young hookers.
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:12 AM   #342
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Mahindra Interested In Bankrupt Saab


Reuters – Sat, Dec 31, 2011 1:39 AM EST: Mahindra & Mahindra (:MAHM.NSMAHM.NS), India's largest utility vehicle maker, is interested in buying at least part of bankrupt Swedish carmaker Saab Automobile, Bloomberg reported on Friday citing sources.

Mahindra is trying to set up meetings with two court-appointed administrators who are overseeing Saab's bankruptcy possibly to buy parts of the carmaker or the whole company, Bloomberg said.

A Mahindra spokeswoman declined to comment when contacted by Reuters.

Saab was declared bankrupt by a court earlier this month, ending a nine-month battle by its Dutch owner Swedish Automobile NV (:SWAN.NSSWAN.NS) to stay afloat. It has not made any vehicles since April and several rescues have failed.

A number of potential buyers have shown interest in parts or all of Saab and there is a chance a deal can be made that allows some operations to continue, the company's receivers said on Friday.

Saab's court-appointed receivers, Hans Bergqvist and Anne-Marie Pouteaux, said in a statement they had met a number of Swedish and foreign players who have expressed interest in a possible purchase of all or parts of the business.
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Old 01-04-2012, 06:43 AM   #343
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Old 01-04-2012, 06:53 AM   #344
 
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And anybody who thinks that GM is serious about not wanting "valuable American technology" to fall into the hands of the Chinese should take a look at the GM sale of Hummer to China. A lot of military technology was involved in that sale. Even though the deal allegedly eventually "fell through" ... China is now producing, and using, Hummers. Including military-grade vehicles.

A black Dongfeng ‘Hummer’ police car in China | CarNewsChina.com - China Auto News

Anyway, America has been feeding all sorts of technology to the Chinese for years. China's space program is yet another of our outsourced industries. This GM excuse strikes me as just that.
AM General =/= General Motors

AM General is an entirely different company.
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:32 AM   #345
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AM General =/= General Motors

AM General is an entirely different company.
What? You mean the H2+H3 aren't REALLY Hummers/Hummvees? This is news to me! *
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:40 AM   #346
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AM General =/= General Motors

AM General is an entirely different company.
Interesting point, though I had no confusion regarding that matter. The point of the article was to refute the idea that GM did not want the Hummer technology to fall into China's hands. It was, for all intents and purposes, already there.

And if something gets into Russian hands, like the rights to manufacture H2s, then it is essentially already in China's hands. Read from Wikipedia, below.

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In December 1999, AM General sold the brand name to General Motors, but continued to manufacture the vehicles.[9] GM was responsible for the marketing and distribution of all Hummers produced by AM General. Shortly thereafter, GM introduced two of its own design models, the H2 and H3, and renamed the original vehicle H1. AM General continued to build the H1 until it was discontinued in 2006,[12] and was contracted by GM to produce the H2. The H3 was built in Shreveport, LA alongside the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon pickups, with which it shared the GMT-355 platform (modified and designated GMT-345).

By 2006, the Hummer began to be exported and sold through importers and distributors in 33 countries.[13] On October 10, 2006, GM began producing the Hummer H3 at its Port Elizabeth plant in South Africa for international markets.[13] The Hummers built there at first were only left-hand drive, but right-hand drive versions were added and exported to Australia and other markets.

The H2 was also assembled in Kaliningrad, Russia, by Avtotor, starting in 2006 and ending in 2009.[14] The plant produced a few hundred vehicles annually, and its output was limited to local consumption with five dealers in Russia.
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:56 AM   #347
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What? You mean the H2+H3 aren't REALLY Hummers/Hummvees? This is news to me! *
There seems to be a distinction between a 'Hummer' and a 'Humvee.' As far as I can tell, the Humvee (HMMWV) is the original AM General designed and manufactured vehicle - the military-grade vehicle that Arnold Schwarzenegger was driving around on American streets, before the H2 was released. The H2 is the more widely recognizable civilian re-design manufactured by GM.

At some point the Humvee also became the Hummer 1, or H1, though it is essentially the same vehicle. Minor differences detailed below.

HMMWV vs. HUMMER H1 | HUMMER H1 & H2 | AM General LLC - Mobility solutions for the 21st Century

So Donfeng's 'Hummer' is actually probably a 'Humvee'. This vehicle, however, which debuted at the 2008 Auto China Show in Beijing, is closer to an H2.
http://sustainabledesignupdate.com/w...uto-hummer.jpg

And this one:
A Chinese Company Will Buy Hummer (and Maybe Save U.S. Jobs?) | The CarGurus Blog
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:00 AM   #348
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Some more details about the history of AM General, below. Fascinating.

2003 Hummer Humvee Military Vehicle | Hummer & Hyundai Cars
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:45 AM   #349
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There seems to be a distinction between a 'Hummer' and a 'Humvee.' As far as I can tell, the Humvee (HMMWV) is the original AM General designed and manufactured vehicle - the military-grade vehicle that Arnold Schwarzenegger was driving around on American streets, before the H2 was released. The H2 is the more widely recognizable civilian re-design manufactured by GM.

At some point the Humvee also became the Hummer 1, or H1, though it is essentially the same vehicle. Minor differences detailed below.

HMMWV vs. HUMMER H1 | HUMMER H1 & H2 | AM General LLC - Mobility solutions for the 21st Century

So Donfeng's 'Hummer' is actually probably a 'Humvee'. This vehicle, however, which debuted at the 2008 Auto China Show in Beijing, is closer to an H2.
http://sustainabledesignupdate.com/w...uto-hummer.jpg

And this one:
A Chinese Company Will Buy Hummer (and Maybe Save U.S. Jobs?) | The CarGurus Blog

Joking aside, the target was the fact that GM's H3 and H2 are modified GM tooling of their large SUV's and pretty much not related in anyway to the AM General Hummer/Hummvee.

It's a glorified styling exercise in the same way a New Beetle is a re-body of the Golf platform.
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:49 AM   #350
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Joking aside, the target was the fact that GM's H3 and H2 are modified GM tooling of their large SUV's and pretty much not related in anyway to the AM General Hummer/Hummvee.

It's a glorified styling exercise in the same way a New Beetle is a re-body of the Golf platform.
So you're telling me the H2s don't have plate armour body panels?
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:33 PM   #351
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"Hummer" is to "HMMWV", what "Dong" is to "Dongfeng".

Get it straight people. You're welcome.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:16 AM   #352
 
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Joking aside, the target was the fact that GM's H3 and H2 are modified GM tooling of their large SUV's and pretty much not related in anyway to the AM General Hummer/Hummvee.

It's a glorified styling exercise in the same way a New Beetle is a re-body of the Golf platform.

Bingo.

Tron, China has had HMMMV copies for a while, and that served as a lesson to GM and other carmakers not to let the Chinese wantonly reverse-engineer a product for its domestic market...not without a legal fight.

The paltry number of HMMMVs sold in China meant nothing to GM, but Buick is a major revenue source. GM sold three times as many Buicks in China as in the US -- about a half-million cars. There's no way that GM would allow Dongfeng to buy the NG9-5 tooling to create a Buick clone for pennies on the dollar.

That would be insanity.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:37 AM   #353
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Bingo.

Tron, China has had HMMMV copies for a while, and that served as a lesson to GM and other carmakers not to let the Chinese wantonly reverse-engineer a product for its domestic market...not without a legal fight.

The paltry number of HMMMVs sold in China meant nothing to GM, but Buick is a major revenue source. GM sold three times as many Buicks in China as in the US -- about a half-million cars. There's no way that GM would allow Dongfeng to buy the NG9-5 tooling to create a Buick clone for pennies on the dollar.

That would be insanity.
You say that as though GM is completely stupid, that they were naive when all of a sudden the Chinese started producing shiny new Humvees in Chinese police livery. I don't think GM is that stupid. They just pretend to look that way. ;)

This is the story of the Dongfeng Humvee, that I linked before. It might surprise you. AM General willingly supplied parts for the first 100 vehicles, knowing full-well what the Chinese would do after.

A black Dongfeng ‘Hummer’ police car in China | CarNewsChina.com - China Auto News
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Today it doesn’t really matter anymore anyway, Dongfeng can make the parts from AM General by itself and the Cummins engines are now also used in very civilian trucks. But it was a nice trick – most likely with the full knowledge of all involved. Plausible deniability is everything!
I saw plenty of Buicks in China when I was there recently. Very popular car.

Is the NG9-5 platform shared with Buicks? Do you think this is the reason the Chinese are interested in Saab - so they can make their own Buick knock-offs?
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:38 PM   #354
 
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I saw plenty of Buicks in China when I was there recently. Very popular car.

Is the NG9-5 platform shared with Buicks? Do you think this is the reason the Chinese are interested in Saab - so they can make their own Buick knock-offs?
Yes.

The NG9-5 uses a slightly different version of the Epsilon II platform that's under the Buick Regal and Lacrosse (and also the Opel Insignia).

If Dongfeng had the tooling it would easily -- and leagally -- be able to manufacture a Regal knockoff
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:50 PM   #355
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Yes.

The NG9-5 uses a slightly different version of the Epsilon II platform that's under the Buick Regal and Lacrosse (and also the Opel Insignia).

If Dongfeng had the tooling it would easily -- and legally -- be able to manufacture a Regal knockoff
Aha. Very interesting. So they're after the tools for making the chassis?

What exactly is the Epsilon II platform, anyway? What would a company need in order to make Epsilon II vehicles? Isn't it the assembly line itself that's the most important thing? The chassis? The drive-train?

I don't think it's Dongfeng that's interested in Saab. Last we heard, it was Youngman.
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:40 PM   #356
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:49 PM   #357
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:05 PM   #358
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You'd think a wealthy Swedish philanthrope would/could step in to keep the collection together.
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:17 PM   #359
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I will be putting a bid in for the EV-1.
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:34 PM   #360
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You'd think a wealthy Swedish philanthrope would/could step in to keep the collection together.
Surely in Socialist Sweden such an animal does not exist.

I can see how many car museums would benefit from a handful of those cars. Just a handful of them are historically significant. The rest, well, are just oddities that us enthusiasts care to save.

MoMA should buy the UR-Saab. Gorgeous.
I'd like me a low-mileage Aero or SPG
IJ and me will be bidding on the sweet EV-1. Still got my 5/1985 R&T mag.
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