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Old 11-17-2007, 08:37 AM   #21
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Here you go:

"In researching this engine, we discovered that few rebuilders are overhauling Northstar V8s - not because these engines are lasting forever (they're not) but because the Northstar V8s are such expensive and complex engines. Cadillac has no reman program for Northstar V8s (if one fails, replace it with a new one). None of the major production engine rebuilders are doing Northstar V8s, and some rebuilders told us certain critical internal parts are unavailable (such as oversize crankshaft bearings). Add to this the fact that the cylinder liners can't be replaced or overbored and it doesn't leave much to rebuild.

Even the heads are throw-aways, according to Cadillac. If the valve guides are worn, Cadillac says the cylinder heads need to be replaced. The heads have hard powder metal valve guides, but we don't see any reason why the guides can't be replaced with new ones or repaired with bronze or cast iron guide liners."


http://www.aa1car.com/library/2002/us100232.htm
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:41 AM   #22
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Just got off the phone with me father, he was disgusted at this idea. The engines are great for 20-30,000 miles, but after that, when they need to be replaced, (which happens, eventually), no one will rebuild them because they never sit right after the head has been off, and they knock.

So, when it comes time to replace the engine (the naturally aspirated version), you're looking at $8500 at the dealer...

If GM bastardizes this brand that much, I'll never buy one of these cars again.

Seriously, where do you get this info? The engines are dead after 20-30k miles? If that were really the case don't you think there would be tons of press, class action suits, etc against Cadillac. I still see plenty rolling around with Northstars.

If you are going to make some ridiculous claim like that then back it up with some valid information.

Until then, I stand by the fact that this is misinformation.
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:46 AM   #23
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My father puts me through school, he's been working on GM cars since he was 16 years old. Didn't you see Kalvin's post about oil usage? I've been told because of the expansion and contraction of different metals / allows used in the engine, this fucks everything all up, thus oil leaks. Most of his customers who end up buying them end up regretting it.

By the way, this goes along with Americans incompetency and inability to change oil at proper intervals. Given that, this is not an engine that's going to do anything positive for this company.
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:47 AM   #24
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http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...m/t-29902.html

http://messages.yahoo.com/Recreation...=2&frt=2&off=1

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1078f6

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Old 11-17-2007, 09:11 AM   #25
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I didn't see any mention of all Northstars dying at 20-30k.

And how is this any different than the oil sludging problems people have had on their Saab.

Owner ineptitude is not the fault of a manufacturer.

Also, most of the posts you made were for older models. I want to see stuff about the newer models, because Saab/GM aren't going to grab an engine from a 1998 Aurora and put it in a 2010 Saab.
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:37 AM   #26
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Northstars are not reliable motors. Take this for example they essentially have 2 headgaskets. A headgasket and a block half gasket. And they leak like a no other after very few miles. A tech i used to work with said the caddy guys are rolling in the dough because they can beat flat rate in about 13 hours. Caddy says it's about ~17 hours of labor iirc. They are good yet again they suck.
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:45 AM   #27
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Even when people do maintenance the things don't last.

Saab has had a tried and true engine design for almost 40 years, the only time they started fucking up was when GM attempted to get better consumer reports by lowering maintenance requirements.

For the record, I will give you this, perhaps "death" is a strong weird, either way, if I'm going to drop 50-60 grand on a car, I'd expect a little more than 50,000 miles before the thing is leaking and using oil - as a number of his clients' cars have.

Perhaps the lack of consumer reports or class action lawsuits is because often the dealerships merely replace the engines at cost to General Motors. Ever since emissions standards, this company has fucked up time after another, and it needs to pull its head out of its ass and realize it can't pull this shit anymore.

The 35 mpg standard goes without being talked about. I stand by what I said about this engine being a heap of shit. At any rate, anyone here working on a dealership will tell you no consideration is given to the person who'll have to repair the thing later.

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Old 11-17-2007, 12:04 PM   #28
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I am still looking for empirical evidence that states Northstars die at 20-30kmiles.

Empirical implies that there are data points and actual scientific results that support your hypothesis that Northstars die at 20-30k miles.

Your father's knowledge is qualitative, not empirical.

The reason why I am curious about this, is because I will likely pick up a 9-5 once the new body style rolls out. Knowing, how and why these fail, is something that would be of interest to the entire Saab community.

So you providing supportive evidence is VERY IMPORTANT to us.

Alas, I was not trying to be a "fucking dick."

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Old 11-17-2007, 12:25 PM   #29
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i'm with topher on this one, i'd like to see some real evidence that the northstar is "no good". those new v6's are nothing to write home about either, i was talking to one of the caddy techs that works at Burnside's dealer, and he was talking about how theyve been having to do timing chains on those SRX things with under 30k on em...that sounds pretty shitty to me.

also, for whats its worth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Prem...gine#Northstar


no mention of any sort of reliability issues, though they do mention that it was on the Ward's 10 Best Engines list for 1995, 1996, and 1997. so not cutting edge stuff, but still probably quite good, and with some updating probably a very good basis for a turbocharged engine of the size needed to compete with the big boys.

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Old 11-17-2007, 12:26 PM   #30
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For fucks sake.


EVERYONE relax, have a homebrew.

It's ok to disagree.


Really, it is.
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Old 11-17-2007, 02:48 PM   #31
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At the shop I work for, we have a lot of these Northstar's coming in, and they're all owned by older folks who change their oil on a regular basis and actually check their oil level every once in a while!

Every single one of them has come in before it's time for an oil change because they noticed that there was almost no oil appearing on the dipstick 1,000 miles before their next scheduled oil change.

Northstar's take anywhere from 7.5 to 8 quarts of oil. I wonder why...?

Two of these particular customers had their engines replaced under warranty by GM around 40,000 miles. One of them was in earlier last week because of a bucking problem. It turns out his transmission is dying and to get the trans out, you need to pull it and the engine as an assembly. And, it's a baseline of $2,300 on the trans rebuild.

I've never been a big fan of the Northstar's and never will be, simply because over-designing something is a German trait, not an American trait. The starter assembly is stupid, and the ignition cassettes are way worse than Saabs. The rear spark plugs are very hard to get at, and the water pumps are a serious pain to change. I've never had to do an alternator on one, but I can't imagine it would be easy either.

I'm not against the idea of a V-8 in a 9-5, but don't make it the Northstar. If Saab actually wants to be competitive with other European cars, the Northstar is not the way to go.
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:19 AM   #32
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v8 FTL. A v6 is already really pushing it. They should just ship an inline 4 with a GT35 from the factory
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Old 11-18-2007, 07:38 AM   #33
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ya know, saab started to devople a v8 back in the late 80's early 90's, and i loved the idea (it used 2 c900 heads, one per bank)

my only thoughts to a saab v8 would be that id like it if its made to the same high standers of saabs other moters, for example,, if this v8 can "relax" at 20psi of boost, still untilize direct ignition, and 4 valves per cylinder. then i think saab will have a moter to die for, but if not, why are they wasteing there time,, as stated early,, a well dont v6 will make the same power.

although personally, i think putting a turbocharged vesion of the trailblazers I6, in a car, could be a good combination
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Old 11-18-2007, 10:05 AM   #34
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Quote:
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While you listen to this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0scF6LnhnU8

Btaint!
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:19 PM   #35
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Holy crap it would totally SUCK if saab uses a northstar in a saab! W/O a doubt it is the worst engine that I have ever owned. My 2000 caddy gets 13-17 mpg & needed a new engine at just a tad over 50,000 miles. It would consume large amounts of oild for the last 15K miles of it's life & the local dealership said it was normal. Like 3 qts in 1K miles is normal...... Anyways, GM was kind enough to pay for the labor & gave us a discount on the engine be we still had to shell out over $7K on the car.

The engines are totally gutless & are complete pieces of crap. If you ask a independent shop & not a GM dealership you will get the truth about how many of these engines break apart with under 50K on them.

I would say a turbo 6 is all that is needed to get whatever power is desired. Just look at the power people are getting with minimal mods out of the Noble's with simple bolt ons to the Mazda engine
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Old 11-18-2007, 02:33 PM   #36
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Do the new Cadillacs (2005+) have any problems with their northstar engines? Or do they use something else now?
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:49 AM   #37
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Maybe Saab is developing something at "powertrain Sweden" based on the northstar block? You gotta do something to make those T7 Di cassetes fit.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:13 AM   #38
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Hey new update on this. Was reading an issue of motor trend/car and driver talking about the next gen corvette and how they may go with a MR setup for the high end version, so coop you might have seen that. Anyways they were talking about giving it a new High Tech V8 that would replace the Northstar engine in the GM lineup. They said it was to be a 5.0L V8 DOHC 32v motor with direct injection.......maybe this is the motor we may be getting in turbocharged version.



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Old 11-22-2007, 08:54 AM   #39
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If they want to give Saab a V8, why not the LS2?
Heck why not just give it a Twin-Turbo LS7? Bump it up to oh say 900-1000 hp. That'd kick some tails.

Personally I'm for Northstar engines. They're great engines. My grandpa owned several and had no problems. If you look at just about anything you're going to find a problem sooner or later. Somebody else could make the claim that Saabs are crap and that you'd pretty much junk them after 50k mi because they need tons of repairs. It's what you look at and where you get your info. Someone who doesn't like Northstars or is say a BMW fan is going to rip the Northstar and find all the horror stories just like someone who doesn't like Saab and is a Audi fan is going to rip Saab and find all their horror stories. Take a chill pill guys, 'don't knock it 'till you've tried it'. I'm sure you could find an equal or greater amount of people who absolutely love the Northstar and say it's very reliable.

I just found this online, it has nothing to do with Saab but it's nuts anyway! Found it after looking at Palmer's RS6 vid. It's a video of a RS6 wagon that has been totally disintegrated. RS6 Crash
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:42 PM   #40
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Personally I'm for Northstar engines. They're great engines. My grandpa owned several and had no problems. If you look at just about anything you're going to find a problem sooner or later. Somebody else could make the claim that Saabs are crap and that you'd pretty much junk them after 50k mi because they need tons of repairs. It's what you look at and where you get your info. Someone who doesn't like Northstars or is say a BMW fan is going to rip the Northstar and find all the horror stories just like someone who doesn't like Saab and is a Audi fan is going to rip Saab and find all their horror stories. Take a chill pill guys, 'don't knock it 'till you've tried it'. I'm sure you could find an equal or greater amount of people who absolutely love the Northstar and say it's very reliable.
Sorry, but they are junk. Several people that I know who are in my line of work own caddy's with thiese engines. The defect rate of these engines is the highest that I have ever heard of. Obviously though the majority of people who own cars with this engine will not have any troubles however there are a higher then normal percentage that have had these engine's fail. They are horrible not only due to how often they fail but also how they cannot be rebuilt.
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