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Old 08-06-2013, 07:18 PM   #1
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b204 connecting rods. Info Needed.

So I know that the b204 and b235 connecting rods are the same length (153mm). I am building a... Frankenstein/hybrid motor and am using either JE or Wossner 235 pistons, because I want to retain 235 rod geometry because it has such a good rod to stroke ratio. That and 235 stock wrist pin location. I like the 235 compression ratio, too... Do not try and talk me into the 234/235 engine as I have done it and do not like it much. I want to do something completely different this time!

My question is, does anyone have measurements of the b204 small ends? I have measured the 235 stock pistons where the connecting rod attaches to the small end of the rod. I have a set of pre-94' b234 connecting rods and the small end difference is over .00100" easily.

I want to use the b204 rods because people claim that they are stronger, they are a different color, but the 234 rods weigh only .5oz more than the 235 rods...

Basically I do not know if the small ends of the 204 rods will clearance the 235 pistons. If not does anyone have proof of what the stock 235 rods can handle..? Of course either ones used will be checked, etc... Thanks!
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:47 AM   #2
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• View topic - Bottom End Components - 99 v. C900 v. 9k v. 9-3 v. 9-5

See if that helps. All Saab 4-cyl engines use the same main and rod bearings, and all have 24mm diameter wrist pins.

Also, I'm pretty sure '91-'93 B234 rotating parts won't interchange with '94+ since the deck height of the blocks is different (distance from crank centerline to deck).

B235's usually start blowing pistons at about 350hp, rods will take a bit more. B204 / B234 bottom ends will take 400-425.

If you have a heavy foot it's worth the money to just get good forged parts the first time you build it. You'll never have to tear the block down again.

However, any stock turbo you would use on a Frankenstein type build made up of parts laying around a Saab shop won't be enough to overload any of the stock parts anyway. Unless you spend some money on a quality turbo you don't need to beef anything up anyway.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:45 AM   #3
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i think nick at GS pushed b205 rods to nearly 700hp with no issues
not sure about b235
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:12 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by DrewP View Post
• View topic - Bottom End Components - 99 v. C900 v. 9k v. 9-3 v. 9-5

See if that helps. All Saab 4-cyl engines use the same main and rod bearings, and all have 24mm diameter wrist pins.

Also, I'm pretty sure '91-'93 B234 rotating parts won't interchange with '94+ since the deck height of the blocks is different (distance from crank centerline to deck).

B235's usually start blowing pistons at about 350hp, rods will take a bit more. B204 / B234 bottom ends will take 400-425.

If you have a heavy foot it's worth the money to just get good forged parts the first time you build it. You'll never have to tear the block down again.

However, any stock turbo you would use on a Frankenstein type build made up of parts laying around a Saab shop won't be enough to overload any of the stock parts anyway. Unless you spend some money on a quality turbo you don't need to beef anything up anyway.
I already built b234/235 hybrid. I am going a different route with the car, though... That is why I was curious as well, as I thought the pre 94 components were different. If not subtle, but still. My goal for the car is 7000 ish rpm, 2.3 liter making around 400whp~ similar torque, no stock turbo in my future . I just do not wanna shell out 850 for the pauter rods if they are not an absolute...
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:14 PM   #5
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i think nick at GS pushed b205 rods to nearly 700hp with no issues
not sure about b235
I have talked with Nick a bit over email, he said what they mostly see is elliptical big ends, specifically bearing wear form excess of 7000 rpm. On t7 rods... I was just wondering if maybe someone could measure the small end of a b204 rod where it sits in the pistons pin boss so I could get an idea of what needs to be done next!
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:34 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by 93viggen View Post
I have talked with Nick a bit over email, he said what they mostly see is elliptical big ends, specifically bearing wear form excess of 7000 rpm. On t7 rods... I was just wondering if maybe someone could measure the small end of a b204 rod where it sits in the pistons pin boss so I could get an idea of what needs to be done next!
Are you planning on using b204 pistons with your 205 rods? & how much to grind off?
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:12 PM   #7
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Are you planning on using b204 pistons with your 205 rods? & how much to grind off?
No, 204 connecting rods with 235 pistons, that is what I was needing some measurements for. I am getting oversized Wossner or JE slugs... And I would prefer to take a minimal amount of material off. How much stronger are the 204 rods over the 235 rods? If anyone actually has factual evidence that they are indeed stronger or any better. I plan on making right around 500bhp.

Engine I am planning on: b234 block, 235/234 90mm crankshaft. 235 pistons, 153mm connecting rods whether they be 204, 235 or pauter (I do not wanna shell out 850+ for pauter rods if not needed). t5 head, t7 multi layer steel head gasket. Arp head studs. Custom intake manifold (being mocked up right now), to retain correct injector angle as well as t7 throttle body... Etc, as it is going in a Viggen. Those are the basic plans.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:15 PM   #8
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No, 204 connecting rods with 235 pistons, that is what I was needing some measurements for. I am getting oversized Wossner or JE slugs... And I would prefer to take a minimal amount of material off. How much stronger are the 204 rods over the 235 rods? If anyone actually has factual evidence that they are indeed stronger or any better. I plan on making right around 500bhp.

Engine I am planning on: b234 block, 235/234 90mm crankshaft. 235 pistons, 153mm connecting rods whether they be 204, 235 or pauter (I do not wanna shell out 850+ for pauter rods if not needed). t5 head, t7 multi layer steel head gasket. Arp head studs. Custom intake manifold (being mocked up right now), to retain correct injector angle as well as t7 throttle body... Etc, as it is going in a Viggen. Those are the basic plans.
T7 head gasket will not work with T5 block.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:25 PM   #9
 
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Maybe Harvey or some other folks might want to offer a more informed opinion on this, but I've not heard anything about the B2x4 rods being stronger than the B2x5 rods.

The only reason you hear about rod failures in the B2x5 engines is because of the pistons breaking and catching in the cylinder bore. The rods themselves aren't the issue...
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:41 PM   #10
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T7 head gasket will not work with T5 block.
Reason(s) being?One of the Uhr's did this type of build and has had no issues... I know that a t5 block with t5 internals with a t5 head the t7 head gasket will not work, due to the piston crowns actually coming out of the top of the cylinder bore. But, if you have 235 rods and pistons in a 94+ 234 block then the crowns are slightly below the bore. Now if you are saying that maybe a valve is going to come into contact with a piston, that is all I am understanding. I have deemed that out of the equation after taking many measurements, including compensations for block deck material taken off as well as the cylinder head being resurfaced. Am I missing something? Please inform! b234 block... 90mm crank.. b235 or b204 rods with 235 pistons to retain stock 235 wrist pin location as well as other previous stated things. Unless the deck height between the 234 and 235 block differ..??The main reason I wanna use a 234 block is because the 235 block for cylinders 2 and 3 there is so much material at the bottom taken away... The bottom of the cylinders sleeves are just puny in comparison.

This is one of the Uhrs cars that I got my idea from... Garaget | Saab 9-5R (2000)

Again my question still has yet to be answered... I began by asking for a measurement that turned into an off topic discussion

And Saunders, that makes complete sense to me, I was just curious for some hard data! I have always heard people swear by t5 internals, so I just wanted some factual evidence, as that is the only way I base my choices. From what I have measured and weighed the sets I have are nearly identical, minus the small end of the rods.
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:14 PM   #11
 
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And Saunders, that makes complete sense to me, I was just curious for some hard data! I have always heard people swear by t5 internals, so I just wanted some factual evidence, as that is the only way I base my choices. From what I have measured and weighed the sets I have are nearly identical, minus the small end of the rods.


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Old 08-11-2013, 09:17 PM   #12
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So no more answers huh? I guess I will have to get a set of rods on a half off day at the local junkyard to start taking measurements myself.

Harvey! You never answered my super long and detailed replies about the head gaskets and my plan!
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:20 AM   #13
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The b204 & 234 have wider blocke's with shorter strokes via piston pin/Rod length vs the longer rod short piston narrow block 205 & 235's. I tried a t7 gasket on a b204 for about 10 min one time. Then I just installed the correct gasket. The problem with a t7 gasket on a t5 block is the cooling ports have barely 2mm of gasket material holding the coolant in, If you choose to use that combination. For a hot climate or if you don't have the availability to swap a head gasket at any hour of the day. I wouldn't advise it. It will bolt together. Longevity might be an issue.

I personally just crop the 234 pistons & use in the t7 block for the cheapest strongest results. If your bores are trashed, Just buy the 90.5 b235 wossners & Keep the proper geometry,
Photobuckets not working to well, I'll throw the rest of the pics up when the site allows it.


















T7 gasket an a T5 block just barely covers the coolant ports.


This pic just shows how much narrower the t7 block is compared to a T5, T7 Block With T5 gasket laying on top



T5 piston ground for use with T7,
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:59 AM   #14
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What makes T5 parts good, is that they came stock, the only really weak part of a t7 motor is the pistons. Frankly, i like the T7 rods better, the longer rod makes for much better motor geometry. (con rod is at less of an angle half way though the stroke, resulting it less energy loss)

i have never found the limit of either connecting rod. Realistically, i'm not sure this will ever be an issue you will run into. i was told that early T7 b235 rods have some benefits (non tapered wrist-pin holes, Studs instead of bolts) both of these things make me feel like the rod is stronger. However it could also be added mass, with a strength gain you will never need

Harvey, Great information on gaskets!

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Old 08-12-2013, 07:57 AM   #15
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You may want to check out this guy, He's made more Cumulative power than any other privateer HP Addict "Built All by himself" with a few special tools borrowed here & there in the last few years.





This wasn't fast enough, So plans have been made

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T89qM_PEqoQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzBYw3WIZEI
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:41 AM   #16
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Shorter rods generally make better low end power. Or torque. Longer rods are better for high revving, high hp. But won't make as much bottom end torque.

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Old 08-12-2013, 10:46 AM   #17
 
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You may want to check out this guy, He's made more Cumulative power than any other privateer HP Addict "Built All by himself" with a few special tools borrowed here & there in the last few years.



Dayum....

This looks like the "Before..." photo in a Viagra ad.....
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:25 PM   #18
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The b204 & 234 have wider blocke's with shorter strokes via piston pin/Rod length vs the longer rod short piston narrow block 205 & 235's. I tried a t7 gasket on a b204 for about 10 min one time. Then I just installed the correct gasket. The problem with a t7 gasket on a t5 block is the cooling ports have barely 2mm of gasket material holding the coolant in, If you choose to use that combination. For a hot climate or if you don't have the availability to swap a head gasket at any hour of the day. I wouldn't advise it. It will bolt together. Longevity might be an issue.

I personally just crop the 234 pistons & use in the t7 block for the cheapest strongest results. If your bores are trashed, Just buy the 90.5 b235 wossners & Keep the proper geometry,
Photobuckets not working to well, I'll throw the rest of the pics up when the site allows it.


















T7 gasket an a T5 block just barely covers the coolant ports.


This pic just shows how much narrower the t7 block is compared to a T5, T7 Block With T5 gasket laying on top



T5 piston ground for use with T7,
Hmm, good write up with pictures, Harvey! I had a t5 and t7 gasket I was actually comparing last night! Great info. Maybe I should just keep my 235 block with all 235 components, just upgrade pistons as everyone seems to do.. As well as maybe shell out for the Pauter rods. I just hate seeing the material missing on cylinders 2 and 3 at the bottom of the cylinders in the 235's. I have a 234 and 235 in my garage, and a 234 block with a 235 head in my car at the moment... I just prefer the multi layer steel gasket for the goals I am trying to achieve. Just bought Pats ARP head stud kit, should help keep the head from lifting . Thanks again, Harvey! I would like to at least put a t5 head on, as I already bought springs for it and am working with a local company (Schneider racing) to have retainers made, as well as reground cams... But we will see I guess.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:34 PM   #19
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Shorter rods generally make better low end power. Or torque. Longer rods are better for high revving, high hp. But won't make as much bottom end torque.

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Um what...? Look up formula 1 engines bore, stroke and rod to stroke ratios...
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:08 PM   #20
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You took that the wrong way. The higher the rod/stroke ratio, the better the engine is for high end power and high revving. The lower the rod stroke ratio the more torque the engine will a make. Most street cars have a rod/stroke ratio between 1.5-2. Every f1 engine you'll come across will have a r/s ratio of over 2:1. Its very simple physics as to why it works this way but I wouldn't want to bore anyone

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