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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 07-18-2013, 09:02 PM   #1
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Just got the Viggen on the Dyno, need opinions.

I just got back from a dyno session with my Viggen (formerly IceMans) I was told the car was running too lean and the operator backed out of the pull because he didn't want to risk damage to the engine by running it to redline.

Car is showing no CELs, Open SID shows good numbers for mReq and mAir, Amul generally goes no higher or lower than +/- 500 and the car feels ok to drive on a day to day basis. Car has 207,000km on it, DIC was done at 173,000, MAF at 94,000, plugs last done at 188,400, Fuel Filter at 182,000.

All mods were done by Iceman, I can take no credit for any of it at this point in time.

Engine Mods:

Stage 3 ECU tuned by Dimitry Platonoff
3.5 Bar FPR
GS 3" DP V2 w/ race cat
2.5" Saab Sport
GS Open Intake
MP performance Intercooler

It is worth noting that the shop was 92F and I was only running 91 Octane at the time.

Below is a picture of the Dyno graph, you can see where T7 started reducing boost in response to the lean condition, the spike in AFR at the end is when the operator backed off the throttle.



I am hoping for some serious opinions on why this car is running lean and reducing boost in response to the condition. My main thoughts are the stock fuel pump isn't keeping up or maybe the MAF is on the way out.

All that being said, the car is making pretty good power and torque but I know there is more left if I can get the AFR where it should be.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:52 PM   #2
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Where did he have the RPM signal hooked up?
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:06 AM   #3
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does the car have t5 cams at all? Just wondering since you're around the level that this would be advised
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:30 AM   #4
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RPM signal was off the green/yellow wire from the DIC, it was reading the same on their screen as on open SID.

I don't have T5 cams installed yet but I have a spare B204 head in my garage if those ones will work in a B235R. Before I put T5 cams in I want to figure out this fueling issue.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:09 AM   #5
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Check fuel pressure, go from there. He should get on it at around 2500 rpm's; I found that almost every wire coming off the dic on my viggen reads rpm. T-5 cams, install those when you get a bigger turbo. Show this to Dimitri, send ecu back to him, he will re-tune. Took three tries before I was happy, as well as the car-do not do this until you know FP is right, oct is the highest you can get, car is perfect tune, or you will chase your tail. Stock fuel pump is fine for those numbers, but that does not mean it's not old and needs replacing.
Good luck.

Last edited by lms; 07-19-2013 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:20 AM   #6
 
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Originally Posted by Whilhelm View Post
It is worth noting that the shop was 92F and I was only running 91 Octane at the time.
Uh.....


wow.
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:54 AM   #7
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Check fuel pressure, go from there. He should get on it at around 2500 rpm's; I found that almost every wire coming off the dic on my viggen reads rpm. T-5 cams, install those when you get a bigger turbo. Show this to Dimitri, send ecu back to him, he will re-tune. Took three tries before I was happy, as well as the car-do not do this until you know FP is right, oct is the highest you can get, car is perfect tune, or you will chase your tail. Stock fuel pump is fine for those numbers, but that does not mean it's not old and needs replacing.
Good luck.
After I check fuel pressure I am going to put my stock ECU and FPR back in to be safe and while I get the tune adjusted. Once thats done I will go back to the Dyno on a cooler day with 94 octane and see if it is better.

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Uh.....


wow.
So from that response you think I should have been running better fuel? Or was it too hot?

That was the coolest weather we have had all week up here, the temps have been consistently in the 95-100 range all week.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:24 AM   #8
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After I check fuel pressure I am going to put my stock ECU and FPR back in to be safe and while I get the tune adjusted. Once thats done I will go back to the Dyno on a cooler day with 94 octane and see if it is better.



So from that response you think I should have been running better fuel? Or was it too hot?

That was the coolest weather we have had all week up here, the temps have been consistently in the 95-100 range all week.
To hot, but if you have higher oct you should run that no matter what.
Oh, and good job keeping the stock ecu, most don't.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:47 AM   #9
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Get the t5 cams in there and also a different turbo. Probably have similar power to what you have now, its just the power will be safer. Won't need as much boost and it will also be up higher in the rpm range vs the mid range tq spike.

I thought those numbers seem quite good for the mods you have..... Always use the best gas you can get especially if going to a dyno. Its so hard getting proper airflow to a engine on a dyno......
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:48 AM   #10
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Again, credit goes to Iceman, he loved this thing to death.
I really lucked out on this car, I have service records and receipts all the way back to new as well as all the parts that came off in favor of upgrade parts. I even got a pile of original sales brochures and the Saab 9-3 audio tour CD.

Since getting it, it has become my personal mission to maintain the insane level of service and respect this car received throughout its life.

I think forged pistons and an engine rebuild are coming before I change the turbo. The car has 207000km on it and I don't want to push my luck. I understand that I can make safer power on less boost with a bigger turbo but I really want to have the inside of the motor rock solid so I don't have to worry about it.

I plan on keeping this car for a while so I want to do things right.

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Old 07-19-2013, 08:03 PM   #11
 
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So from that response you think I should have been running better fuel? Or was it too hot?
Better fuel for sure, in part because it was too hot. You should ALWAYS use the highest available octane with a tuned car, especially in summer. As an initial step to squeeze more power from stock equipment, most tunes remove the octane variability first.

You should be using 93 or 94. I would bet my left testicle that the car is tuned for 93.

If you have a pic of the car on the dyno, post the pics of the fans...
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:04 PM   #12
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There is only one place near me that I can get 94 and its on the other side of town, I usually run 94 but i put in 91 last time I filled up because I didn't have time to drive across town for gas. Then the dyno day came up and I still had 3/4s of a tank. Oh well 94 from now on and I will dyno again on a cooler day after talking to Dip about the tune and checking my fuel pressure.

The fan in front of my car was probably not sufficient to adequately cool the car during the runs. It was only on the dyno for 2 short pulls and my temps didn't go much higher then they do on the highway.
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Old 07-20-2013, 04:50 AM   #13
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It's good that you took it in and it's good the operator noticed the lean afr and didn't go further. There's not a single spot on that graph where it's rich enough. Once you go wide open throttle, the afr should drop below that red dashed line pretty quickly.

You should check the vacuum line going to the fuel pressure regulator. After that my guess would be fuel pump like you wrote.

Don't let the guys on here beat you up too much on the octane. The octane that you run has very little effect in relation to how lean your car is running under load.

Oh and also, see how the scales are different for tq and hp? It's nice to keep those scales the same, that way it's easier to really grok what's happening. Dynojet has a really nice free reader for download, if you can get back to the shop they should be able to give you a digital copy of your run(s). That way you can save them for comparison in the future and do things like overlay them on top of one another.
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Old 07-20-2013, 03:11 PM   #14
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See if Dimitry can shed some light on things. Hopefully he will be of help. I did purchase the tune so hopefully he will help you out as needed.

Maybe dyno with the stock ecu and fpr and see what happens. that would rule out a lot of things if it goes well. A lot of good suggestions above.
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Old 07-25-2013, 11:26 AM   #15
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Throw in some new plugs, and if you add more power, put in a new MAF.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:08 PM   #16
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Hey buddy I would follow what drew has to say as not many people know how t7 works like he does. I would check the fuel pump first. Just check pressure with a gage while you drive. If pressure drops its because there isnt enough flow. A stock healthy oe pump will flow enough fuel for 400 hp but a lot of aftermarket fuel pump inserts are inferior and cant flow enough for a tuned car. Pretty simple to check pressure before changing plugs, mafs etc
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:53 AM   #17
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Checking fuel pressure this weekend. The plugs have been replaced in this car every other oil change. Also talked to Dip the other day, we are going to get the tune adjusted if fuel pressure is showing normal.

When checking fuel pressure, what kind of numbers should I be looking for?

I am wondering about the MAF, wouldn't I show a CEL if it was out of spec? And also I have been keeping an eye on my Mair and MReq on the SID and the two numbers stay very close to each other all the time. It is my understanding that MReq is the Requested air mass by the ECU and the Mair is the actual reading from the MAF. So if the two numbers stay pretty close together, especially under WOT then that should indicate that the car is getting the required airmass.

I should just bite the bullet and put a Walbro 255 in and be done with it. It couldn't hurt and my stock fuel pump has 207000kms on it.
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Old 07-26-2013, 05:59 AM   #18
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Mafs will throw no codes, unless the wire breaks or it's seriously f-up, clean it no matter what. If you have that many miles on your stock fuel pump, replace. If Maf has over 60k, replace. Lean conditions on T7's is like playing with fire.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:10 AM   #19
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When checking fuel pressure, what kind of numbers should I be looking for?
You are looking for numbers that are around 3 bar + intake pressure.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:11 AM   #20
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Hey buddy I would follow what drew has to say as not many people know how t7 works like he does. I would check the fuel pump first. Just check pressure with a gage while you drive. If pressure drops its because there isnt enough flow. A stock healthy oe pump will flow enough fuel for 400 hp but a lot of aftermarket fuel pump inserts are inferior and cant flow enough for a tuned car. Pretty simple to check pressure before changing plugs, mafs etc
Thank you Sir!
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