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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 09-02-2012, 10:45 AM   #1
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Fringe-Tuning= Gas Antics...

I wanted to know if it is my tune or just new-found awareness, but, as I get closer to the limits of my setup tune wise, I've noticed an increasing sensitivity to fuel. Meaning, one gas station's 93MRON will yield a ton of knock counts, whereas others register not-a-one. So, is it my tune and simple probability or, is there that much variance in gas?
-Cm
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:34 AM   #2
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yes its your tune, and yes there is that much variability in gas.



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Old 09-02-2012, 06:08 PM   #3
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It could also be because this time of year, the temperatures between night, and day are much different. Keep an eye on your intake air temps when knock is happening.

Also, some stations are beginning there winter fuel mixes, while others may still be on summer fuel mixes,,
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:12 AM   #4
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I think that with the prices of corn shooting up, that some gas is less-ethanol. I've seen the 9-5 adapt to 0% up to 13% on fill-ups. While ethanol burns cooler/slower (holds less energy), it does allow the car to be more generous with timing. finding a station that uses less ethanol could cause t5 to reel-in the timing. Try to be consistant with your fill-ups.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:11 AM   #5
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yes its your tune, and yes there is that much variability in gas.
A "ton" is a bit of hyperbole; it goes from 0 knocks to 2-3 per-pull. This is irksome because while it seldom goes to knock map, the knocks IIRC,still lead to a global retard of timing. I dunno, anyone have any tips concerning tuning the timing? I've found it markedly temperamental. A 10* IAT differential from day-of-tune to another will yield huge performance differences. This plus the fact that Dash board and T5 suite report different adaption on behalf of the ECU concerning timing. Does anyone know at what point the ECU globally applies a timing reduction? Can it cell-by-cell adapt? Can I see these point adaptions?
I am running W/M so the stock maps are not in effect...
Thanks,
-Cm
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:24 AM   #6
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a few pings per pull is almost normal. when you see it conistantly climb at a fast rate during a long pull, then things are normal

The grade of fuel, and outside temp can cause adaptations to happen. Frankly thats why these ecus have adaptability built in, not a set in stone, one size fits all map.

most adaptaion is done globally, and constantly as the car drives.

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Old 09-05-2012, 09:28 AM   #7
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a few pings per pull is almost normal. when you see it conistantly climb at a fast rate during a long pull, then things are normal

The grade of fuel, and outside temp can cause adaptations to happen. Frankly thats why these ecus have adaptability built in, not a set in stone, one size fits all map.

most adaptaion is done globally, and constantly as the car drives.

Mike d
Right; 'cept I have a 7 flash code from the CEL, which means adaption limit. I wanted to see where the ECU ran out of adaption, as AFR is right on target across the board... This is why I asked about cell-by-cell and why I'm leery of what adaption has done for me.
When you say "climb consistently at a fast rate" you mean knock, correct? For me this is not the case, it knocks once or twice at one or two specific RPM/MAP sites. I then either add fuel or pull timing from frequently offending cells. I've noticed the ECU never, EVER, EVER positively adapts timing. Once, for shits and giggles, but mainly out of spiteful frustration, I pulled timing by 1.5 degrees from everywhere in a stock map. Can ran more or less the same and the T5 CARPC Dashboard reported ignition adapt as -1 after couple hundred miles. FU T5
Thanks for all the constructive input guys!
-Cm
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:33 AM   #8
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when you make changes are you paying attention to cells around it?

mind you im tuning a much less complicated EMS, but ive caused myself many headaches by not paying attention to interpolation/neighboring cells, ie falling between two cells.

you can induce knock for example by having too large a target jump on the map from cell to cell in the direction load is preceding (traveling down a column or left to right).

what conditions is it pinging under? a row through the gears, or just a 3rd gear pull?

tuning to the fringe limit on a street car never benefits you in the long run.



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Old 09-06-2012, 06:46 PM   #9
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when you make changes are you paying attention to cells around it?

mind you im tuning a much less complicated EMS, but ive caused myself many headaches by not paying attention to interpolation/neighboring cells, ie falling between two cells.

you can induce knock for example by having too large a target jump on the map from cell to cell in the direction load is preceding (traveling down a column or left to right).

what conditions is it pinging under? a row through the gears, or just a 3rd gear pull?

tuning to the fringe limit on a street car never benefits you in the long run.
Thanks for the tip, though, I do generally keep an eye out for neighbor cells. I'll have to check target gradient, though, so thanks for that as well!

In terms of conditions of knock, it almost never knocks in second gear, even though it reaches the same boost as 3rd and 4th. The knocks will sometimes pop up in third and slightly more frequently in 4th. I consistently have a problem with cylinder 1, and less so with #4. 2&3 are quiet, which is weird because these are considered the hot cylinders.
It also knocks more when temps drop, which makes sense as denser charge makes greater effective CR.
-Cm
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:33 PM   #10
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In terms of conditions of knock, it almost never knocks in second gear, even though it reaches the same boost as 3rd and 4th. The knocks will sometimes pop up in third and slightly more frequently in 4th. I consistently have a problem with cylinder 1, and less so with #4. 2&3 are quiet, which is weird because these are considered the hot cylinders.
It also knocks more when temps drop, which makes sense as denser charge makes greater effective CR.
-Cm
as an example. this is the payed for "tune" on my car when i bought it compared to what i came up with. with no other changes to the car or fueling i got rid of all knock (down from spikes of 4 counts) and made 20whp more.


well it makes sense that you knock more in higher gears, as load will increase a tad.

are you plotting the logs in any software? (again...shooting in the dark as i really do not know what available as far as maptracing etc, except logworks...which i also have no experience with)

did you ever index the dekas? are they all rotated properly? almost sounds ike an injector issue on cylinder 1, but it would make more sense if the majority of the issue was on 4 farthest from the regulator.

can you more specifically describe the knock profile? if its sporadic counts its probably not an issue. if it appears and holds steady its usually pointing you to something it doesnt like a/f or timing wise, if it comes in and increases your doing it wrong.

on top of that...if you went in and pulled say 2-3 degrees and did not touch the afr, it would almost prompt me to want to take a look at the knock sensor itself and hunt for false knock. with the evo i can log both the knock "count" that the ecu sees through the algorithms as well as watch the knock voltage out of the sensor, which gives you a baseline of noise, and can help you filter out real events.



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Old 09-06-2012, 10:38 PM   #11
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as an example. this is the payed for "tune" on my car when i bought it compared to what i came up with. with no other changes to the car or fueling i got rid of all knock (down from spikes of 4 counts) and made 20whp more.


well it makes sense that you knock more in higher gears, as load will increase a tad.

are you plotting the logs in any software? (again...shooting in the dark as i really do not know what available as far as maptracing etc, except logworks...which i also have no experience with)

did you ever index the dekas? are they all rotated properly? almost sounds ike an injector issue on cylinder 1, but it would make more sense if the majority of the issue was on 4 farthest from the regulator.

can you more specifically describe the knock profile? if its sporadic counts its probably not an issue. if it appears and holds steady its usually pointing you to something it doesnt like a/f or timing wise, if it comes in and increases your doing it wrong.

on top of that...if you went in and pulled say 2-3 degrees and did not touch the afr, it would almost prompt me to want to take a look at the knock sensor itself and hunt for false knock. with the evo i can log both the knock "count" that the ecu sees through the algorithms as well as watch the knock voltage out of the sensor, which gives you a baseline of noise, and can help you filter out real events.
Got logworks and take logs as best I can, and, I can also see knock signals coming directly from the DIC. I went and adjusted the knock sensitivity map as well, which stock has weird jumps of 20-30 points in places. I only reduced it by a couple points in extreme cases and things ran much better. Getting back to logworks: Whenever I take a log, if I WOT the computer freezes--too many G's for the PC. Then I get these weird "blackouts" in the data set and everything goes to 0 or 100%. Wires are tight. I also learned recently that my AFR's might not be right (think they are pretty darn close) as my wideband is right where the OE stock NB is. I've been told this may lead to artificially rich readings and/or ruin the sensor. However, I have reason to believe it is accurate enough as AFR makes sense math wise and when I leaned out my over-rich maps the soot from the tailpipe went away and the car pulled much harder. Tuning now is kinda iffy as the driveshafts have thrown in the towel and now have some wobble-de-wobble-de-wop. Also, cylinder 1, as marked by the head, is closest to the accessory belt, which means it is furthest from the FPR. I have plenty of flow and injector though.
I'll post some of the log's I've made and some pics of the knock count map and signal from the ECU...maybe my dumb ass missed something
-Cm
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:45 PM   #12
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deka's are indexed nicely and as for knock profile, it seldom knocks repeatedly. Usually it just ticks 1-3 knocks after a good pull. It then either trends in one cell or a cluster (bad mapping on my behalf) or there is a random smattering of knocks all around the map, with 1 knock near peak boost, and one near 1 bar, and then 1 down by .5 bar or something--all different RPM/load zones.
-Cm
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:49 AM   #13
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Somehow I forgot to mention that if I use anti-knock ( NOS brand or anything with MMT) it tamps those knocks out NOW. It is kinda pricey; adds $.60 per gallon.
-Cm
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