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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 04-23-2012, 01:10 AM   #1
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What do you think I need to do?

Hey there all,

I trying to dial in my boost.

My boost gauge needle jumps around alot and It doesn't seem to hold boost.

I want to hold like 24lb to redline.

I'm running a decent size helper spring.

In this video I'm at 16 lb base boost, In an attempt to hold higher boost to redline.
I'm over-boosting at the mo. I really only want to spike at 28lb,But I want to hold at least 24lb to redline

This vid is 3rd gear 2k to 6k WOT, 16lb base boost

Let me know what you think I need to do.

.

Cheers
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:36 AM   #2
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Could it be bad boost control under the T5 boost controller? Maybe your BPC is bad or maybe you need to convert over to the T7 BPC and have the tune updated for that? I would ask John. The T5 BPC is known to not work as well as the T7 BPC. The T5 BPC can be inconsistent.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:10 AM   #3
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I really don't see much jump at all? It's not all about boost, it's about getting your your car to run good in regards to the hardware and tune. Maybe you are asking to much, boost wise? Drop BB and see if that helps??
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:13 AM   #4
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I would definitely convert your ECU to the T7 BPC if you haven't done so already like Jaws suggested.

Don't people normally run base boost under 10 psi around this power level? I would try lowering that too.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:05 AM   #5
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Something that I ran into, as I'm in the exact same phase you are, is that if the boost request map is too conservative down lower, then the ECU sees TOO MUCH boost down low. In turn, it negatively adapts the APC constant, which leads to problems making the boost as well as holding boost. This has to do with your PID mapping which should technically be changed for a helper spring, BUT ymmv. What is happening is that when the ECU sees wicked error rates in boost (too high or too low) it works DAMN hard to get it to go the other way. This yields a swinging boost profile.

I would suggest, despite your inclination otherwise, to get a CANusb to real-time monitor what is going on. When you get to this tune level, it very seldom is just "plug and play"--no matter how good your tuner is, so, no disrespect to JZW! You also have no idea whether or not the boost is getting pulled from knock. This happens basically when boost comes on too fast and the ECU thinks/actually does read knocking.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:24 AM   #6
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It could be a sticky bpc, they can cause some issues like that, its not too bad, not sure if you adapted it much either. I would lower the base boost down some and try again, boost is not power, have made more power with less boost and more timing in many cases.

That tune is set up to run close to what you have, spike to 28psi or so and hold 26-27psi for a while and then fall as the rpms rise. Even a gt3071 will be back to 20psi by 6k, you are outflowing the smaller turbo past 5k. Trying to make it hold more boost up top does not usually add more power, it just makes hotter air and the result is less dense air and a loss in power.

The cars I have tested run pretty smooth on the boost, you can try cleaning the bpc with electrical solenoid cleaner and I would try lowering the base boost a little bit and it has to be well adapted, at least 7-10 wot pulls. It also makes a lot more heat when you start at 2k, start the pulls at 3k and you might see better results.

Lower the base boost and it will probably get a little smoother, may not hold quite as high, but like stated, boost is not power.



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Old 04-23-2012, 11:47 AM   #7
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That wavering boost can sometimes be due to an internal wastegate, especially when you're up there in the boost with a somewhat larger turbo.
I can't believe that 28 is spooling up to around 28psi, I hope you're got one hell of an intercooler that thing must be screaming hot at that boost request. I bet thats one fast NG
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
That tune is set up to run close to what you have, spike to 28psi or so and hold 26-27psi for a while and then fall as the rpms rise. Even a gt3071 will be back to 20psi by 6k, you are outflowing the smaller turbo past 5k. Trying to make it hold more boost up top does not usually add more power, it just makes hotter air and the result is less dense air and a loss in power.

boost is not power.

John
Despite the tune, the turbo is fully capable of higher boost levels up top. As you well know, my car made 340+whp and 360+wtq with the same blower while holding 25PSI well past 6K. I've logged the IATs, there's not a heat problem with a decent I/C. I can promise you that the car won't make the numbers mine did with 16-17 PSI at 6K.

If you are saying that the boost maps don't call for that much boost up top then he will have a problem. What EXACTLY do you have it mapped for?

Just to clarify, FLOW is power and increasing boost is the only means by which a given HW combination may increase flow without HW changes.

D-

Last edited by David in Tallahassee; 04-23-2012 at 05:08 PM. Reason: One last thing...
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David in Tallahassee View Post
Despite the tune, the turbo is fully capable of higher boost levels up top. As you well know, my car made 340+whp and 360+wtq with the same blower while holding 25PSI well past 6K. I've logged the IATs, there's not a heat problem with a decent I/C. I can promise you that the car won't make the numbers mine did with 16-17 PSI at 6K.

If you are saying that the boost maps don't call for that much boost up top then he will have a problem. What EXACTLY do you have it mapped for?

Just to clarify, FLOW is power and increasing boost is the only means by which a given HW combination may increase flow without HW changes.

D-
With deference to both parties; JZW said timing increases yielded more power than did simply upping the boost. Upping timing raises the effective compression ratio. It also raises efficiency, which is a good source of the gains claimed. Dave, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have stock ignition maps on your car? This could very much explain why you are confined to boost for gaining power. Dyno time/live tuning will reveal what is better for each individual case.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
It could be a sticky bpc, they can cause some issues like that, its not too bad, not sure if you adapted it much either. I would lower the base boost down some and try again, boost is not power, have made more power with less boost and more timing in many cases.

That tune is set up to run close to what you have, spike to 28psi or so and hold 26-27psi for a while and then fall as the rpms rise. Even a gt3071 will be back to 20psi by 6k, you are outflowing the smaller turbo past 5k. Trying to make it hold more boost up top does not usually add more power, it just makes hotter air and the result is less dense air and a loss in power.

The cars I have tested run pretty smooth on the boost, you can try cleaning the bpc with electrical solenoid cleaner and I would try lowering the base boost a little bit and it has to be well adapted, at least 7-10 wot pulls. It also makes a lot more heat when you start at 2k, start the pulls at 3k and you might see better results.

Lower the base boost and it will probably get a little smoother, may not hold quite as high, but like stated, boost is not power.



John
I was really not sure what to expect. If this is what its meant to look like, Good shit.
I'll lower my base boost a bit and get it spiking at 28lb rather than 30lb.
Thanks John.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in Tallahassee View Post
Despite the tune, the turbo is fully capable of higher boost levels up top. As you well know, my car made 340+whp and 360+wtq with the same blower while holding 25PSI well past 6K. I've logged the IATs, there's not a heat problem with a decent I/C. I can promise you that the car won't make the numbers mine did with 16-17 PSI at 6K.

If you are saying that the boost maps don't call for that much boost up top then he will have a problem. What EXACTLY do you have it mapped for?

Just to clarify, FLOW is power and increasing boost is the only means by which a given HW combination may increase flow without HW changes.

D-
Thanks for all your help as well David.
I'll get this thing on a dyno and see what happens.
To be honest, If I can get 300+ I'll be happy. If I can get any where near your numbers I'll be ecstatic.But I think your freaky set up is one of a kind, and a credit to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KaMiKaZi_t0M View Post
That wavering boost can sometimes be due to an internal wastegate, especially when you're up there in the boost with a somewhat larger turbo.
I can't believe that 28 is spooling up to around 28psi, I hope you're got one hell of an intercooler that thing must be screaming hot at that boost request. I bet thats one fast NG
Tom, this thing is hauling ass.
I took my Dad for a drive the other day and he shit himself

I have a decent size IC on it now, but I am in the process of getting a ETS size IC before dyno day.

Everybody else, thanks for your comments and help. Thumbs up.

Let's get this thing on the rollers
Dyno day is the 19th of May.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:34 AM   #11
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Doesn't look terribly bad but upgrade to a T7 BPC anyway. Cheap, easy reassurance.

If it still looks like that afterwards, fix base boost and PID maps. What does the boost table look like? Is it increasing toward rev limit or does it rise and fall toward the end?
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:49 PM   #12
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So what do I need to do to convert to the T-7 BPC.
Is it "plug and play" or do I need to get the ECU tuned to suit?

Oh yeah, um ,And what's a boost table? :-0
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:29 PM   #13
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So what do I need to do to convert to the T-7 BPC.
Is it "plug and play" or do I need to get the ECU tuned to suit?

Oh yeah, um ,And what's a boost table? :-0
ECU will need to be reprogrammed to work with a T7 BPC. You also need the correct connector for the T7 BPC. This way you can cut the old connector off and solder on the new one.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:56 PM   #14
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The ECU also needs to be physically modified to run the T7 BPC correctly.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:21 PM   #15
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The ECU also needs to be physically modified to run the T7 BPC correctly.
Yup, you have to solder a couple pins together, I can't remember which ones. If you are good with soldering, it doesn't take too long to do. PimpMyPc did mine within a matter of minutes.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:26 PM   #16
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Mmmm....... Sometimes living in the southern hemisphere has its drawbacks.

I'll get a can of electrical contact cleaner and give that a go on the BPC.
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Old 04-26-2012, 11:29 AM   #17
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You can also buy a new one or try and locate another one. As stated before, when running the boost with ecu control, it will also pull out boost if there is knock detected, not the case with mbc, it will keep pumping in air whether its safe or not, so if you ran higher octane fuel, it might hold boost better, that would be a sign its working like its supposed to and keeping your engine safe.

The pid maps are far from stock, they were adjusted for that tune and it does hold nice and steady when everything is working right.

This is about all I have on boost data, besides the dyno, it made 310whp and 377wtrq at 27psi. This was on 91 octane and could not go more without a lot more knock, so the timing is retarded to keep detonation and pinging down. You can always get a good bit more with better fuel, that is the limit for our cars, you almost always get knock before you reach MBT.

If we had race gas or E-85, another 30-40bhp would be possible...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkUA6...ature=youtu.be

John
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:49 PM   #18
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Are you running BP Ultimate fuel?

A family member who works for Caltex says BP Ultimate is the best fuel on the market (and ask me not to tell anyone - a group of Americans can't hurt!).
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by JZW View Post
You can also buy a new one or try and locate another one. As stated before, when running the boost with ecu control, it will also pull out boost if there is knock detected, not the case with mbc, it will keep pumping in air whether its safe or not, so if you ran higher octane fuel, it might hold boost better, that would be a sign its working like its supposed to and keeping your engine safe.

The pid maps are far from stock, they were adjusted for that tune and it does hold nice and steady when everything is working right.

This is about all I have on boost data, besides the dyno, it made 310whp and 377wtrq at 27psi. This was on 91 octane and could not go more without a lot more knock, so the timing is retarded to keep detonation and pinging down. You can always get a good bit more with better fuel, that is the limit for our cars, you almost always get knock before you reach MBT.

If we had race gas or E-85, another 30-40bhp would be possible...

JZW-stg-5-comparison-M-tune - YouTube

John
I really had no idea to be honest. I thought It hit 28lb and stayed there .
I now better understand why the ECU pulls out boost.I'm going to drop my base boost a bit and get it spiking around 28lb.

I like the video.
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Are you running BP Ultimate fuel?

A family member who works for Caltex says BP Ultimate is the best fuel on the market (and ask me not to tell anyone - a group of Americans can't hurt!).
I usually run Caltex 95 octane or Shell 95( Because of shopper dockets )And for the dyno run I was going to use Shell V-power 98 octane.

You think BP Ultimate is good Brendan?
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:13 PM   #20
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O.K,
Finally I think this is it. I got yet another spring to try out.
This one is a 2mm coil,The others were 1.8mm coil.

This is 14lb Base boost, spiking @28lb. 2mm coil helper spring. Reving 2k to 6k.
My Butt dyno tells me this is the best combo so far.

I have a new 28x8x3.5 IC arriving this week .

I pretty happy with this set up .

Let me know what you think.

.
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