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Old 11-16-2011, 10:03 AM   #1
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Gt3071R and B234/B235 questions

Hello boys,

Right here goes, Im about to start my engine build over the next few weeks and i was undecided on what route to take turbo wise but it looks like im going down the Garrett route as luckily ive managed to get my mitts on a brand new Garrett GT3071R 0.64A/R. It also comes with the Taliaferro 1/2" header flange, A few hoses, Oil restrictor, 5 bolt to 3" V-band and a 9-5 Aero early Abbott 3" downpipe with 3" V-band adaptor which ill chop the downpipe and have it attached to my 9-3 one.

The engine spec i am building is...

B234 Bottom end with new shells, Chains, Gaskets and balancer shaft removal
T7 head
T5 cams
A/C removal with short belt

The hardware ill be using is...

Brand new Viggen clutch and pressure plate....To start with, I will be uprating the friction plate at a later date
630cc Dekas
600mm x 300mm x 75mm FMIC with 2.5" custom pipework
3" turbo back exhaust
Forge FMCL007P Recirc
And ofcourse the GT3071R turbo

First question relating to the turbo, Ill be more than likley keeping the stock manifold and T5 cams so with this in mind and looking at others is 400bhp a realistic end figure once its all set up?

Secondly what sort of drivability should i expect? From what ive read the 0.64A/R works well on a 2.3 and shouldnt be too laggy.

Third question which relates more to the engine build, I know that the obvious route when im building the engine is to use a new T5 B234 head gasket however i know there is a small loss in compression when going down the T5 bottom/T7 top route. I have read that you can use a T7 head gasket which is thinner and get the T5 pistons machined slightly which keeps the compression similar to T7 spec but doesnt weaken the piston in anyway.

Does anyone on here know anymore about this regarding the engine and ifso how much to get machined off the crowns? OR if its worth going down that route and just living with the slightly lower compression and map some ignition advance into it at the bottom end to make off boost performance better?



Thanks in advance Simon
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:41 AM   #2
 
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That's a completely realistic goal.

Throw a set of Volvo valve springs into the head...Leave the balance shafts in place and plug the oil holes...
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:27 AM   #3
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nice goal should be a beast when done.

fo the head stuff why dont you just use a t5 head? and upgrade the valves or put the t5 internals in the t7 block if the t7 head has diff attatchments.


check out yllwjet build he used 2 diff 3071s.

for your goal i would use a gt2871 .86 should be faster than the 3071 .64 you posted. and if your worried about spool and daily drive it i would get the gt2871 .64 still should get you to 400bhp. but if you can get the 3071 cheap dont pass it up

check this out too https://www.saablink.net/forum/perfor...-9-3/27322.htm

another to check https://www.saablink.net/forum/perfor...-9-3/24043.htm
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:26 PM   #4
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nice goal should be a beast when done.

fo the head stuff why dont you just use a t5 head? and upgrade the valves or put the t5 internals in the t7 block if the t7 head has diff attatchments.


check out yllwjet build he used 2 diff 3071s.

for your goal i would use a gt2871 .86 should be faster than the 3071 .64 you posted. and if your worried about spool and daily drive it i would get the gt2871 .64 still should get you to 400bhp. but if you can get the 3071 cheap dont pass it up

check this out too https://www.saablink.net/forum/perfor...-9-3/27322.htm

another to check https://www.saablink.net/forum/perfor...-9-3/24043.htm
Thanks for your reply, My reasons for going down this route are as follows....

Ive got a complete B234 engine which was very cheap, Ive also got a spare compete T7 head and T7 sump, Timing cover etc

My current engine is a B205R so i cant use the block as i want to go 2.3, Hence why theres no point me going for forged pistons as id still have to change the bottom end either way so i opted for the B234 bottom end route. Im going to sell the B205R as a complete low mile unit as its only done 63k with no sludging and can recoup a bit of cash back.

As for the turbo, The price im getting the GT3071R Turbo for with all the other bits is about half the price of a new unit so i cant let it pass. Its a genuine Garrett and is brand new so i have to get it

What would be the benfit of fitting the Volvo valve springs if im keeping the T5 cams? I mean this in a good way? Is it worth doing?

Thanks again
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:39 PM   #5
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Thanks for your reply, My reasons for going down this route are as follows....

Ive got a complete B234 engine which was very cheap, Ive also got a spare compete T7 head and T7 sump, Timing cover etc

My current engine is a B205R so i cant use the block as i want to go 2.3, Hence why theres no point me going for forged pistons as id still have to change the bottom end either way so i opted for the B234 bottom end route. Im going to sell the B205R as a complete low mile unit as its only done 63k with no sludging and can recoup a bit of cash back.

As for the turbo, The price im getting the GT3071R Turbo for with all the other bits is about half the price of a new unit so i cant let it pass. Its a genuine Garrett and is brand new so i have to get it

What would be the benfit of fitting the Volvo valve springs if im keeping the T5 cams? I mean this in a good way? Is it worth doing?

Thanks again
im pretty sure the b205r is the same block as the b235r but the rods and crank are different. dont quote me tho.

the volvo springs allow you to rev higher rpms safely. so you can use the turbo where it makes the power in high rpms

and ya if its cheap its worth it.

you might want to consider cams. other than t5. but the t5 should be good for 400bhp on high boost with 3071
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:52 PM   #6
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonelorry View Post
Thanks for your reply, My reasons for going down this route are as follows....

Ive got a complete B234 engine which was very cheap, Ive also got a spare compete T7 head and T7 sump, Timing cover etc

My current engine is a B205R so i cant use the block as i want to go 2.3, Hence why theres no point me going for forged pistons as id still have to change the bottom end either way so i opted for the B234 bottom end route. Im going to sell the B205R as a complete low mile unit as its only done 63k with no sludging and can recoup a bit of cash back.

As for the turbo, The price im getting the GT3071R Turbo for with all the other bits is about half the price of a new unit so i cant let it pass. Its a genuine Garrett and is brand new so i have to get it

What would be the benfit of fitting the Volvo valve springs if im keeping the T5 cams? I mean this in a good way? Is it worth doing?

Thanks again
There are some different schools of thought on this....

Keeping the B205R, putting in forged pistons and changing to T5 cams and stiffer springs should allow you to extend the rev limit. That and the higher CR of the B205 usually yields serious power comparable to the B234 builds.

But the B234 feels good around town...
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Old 11-16-2011, 01:29 PM   #7
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many claim the 3071r spools quicker then a 2871r.... even not getting one at a discount I would choose a 3071 over the 2871.

Driveability shouldn't be a issue at all. Awesome turbo.....
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Old 11-16-2011, 05:07 PM   #8
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drivability with the 3071wg is great. you have full spool at about 3k rpms, and if you would want to get to full spool even quicker you should put in 4.45FD. i daily drive mine without any issues.

volvo springs are not necessary i dont think. with t5 cams your not going to make any significant power up top, so you dont need to wind out your gears. i was shifting at 7k sometimes with stock t7 head with t5 cams no problem but again the power is not up there. 5800rpm is pretty much the end of where the t5 cams will work with breathing.

youd probably end up somewhere in the 330whp range with your setup. also depending on whos tuning it. if you want a fun daily driven car with a good amount of grunt and will be completely reliable you should stay in that range. and to protect the gearbox.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:18 PM   #9
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if your going for around 400bhp look into the td04 19t with bigger exhaust housing should flow 550cfm around 380bhp on a 2.3 and you already have the turbo, lines, manifold, exhaust, intake. youll have to machine the inducer and cartridge to fit bigger wheel. you can find 6cm exhaust housings on 94-98 saab 9k aeros or you can buy a 7cm housing from ebay for 150. and the td04 will spool alot faster than the 3071. and should put you around 330whp. also i hear people in uk putting bigger exhaust turbines in the td04s to flow better along with the 7cm housing. check out volvo fourms, hyundahi, 3000gt fourms, plus more. the td04 is over looked by alot of people but to me its a great daily turbo for low end and mid with some top.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:26 PM   #10
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many claim the 3071r spools quicker then a 2871r.... even not getting one at a discount I would choose a 3071 over the 2871.

Driveability shouldn't be a issue at all. Awesome turbo.....
how could it spool faster? i see people saying online it does but i just dont see that possibile. thats saying the bigger turbo spools fatser. the wheel is smaller and lighter. i mean if you were comparing ball bearing to journal i could see this
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Old 11-16-2011, 08:47 PM   #11
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how could it spool faster? i see people saying online it does but i just dont see that possibile. thats saying the bigger turbo spools fatser.
tuning most importantly. not just software but cam timing.

also different turbos. the 3071wg i had spools slower than the gtx3071 (on paper so far) and the gtx is bigger. compressor wheel profiling has a lot to do with it
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:29 PM   #12
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Wow so many replies

Regarding the turbo, I dont really fancy going down the 19T route as i dont really like the TD04 design. Ive had 2 x 19Ts in the past and didnt get on with them TBH plus for the price im paying for the GT3071R it would cost me more to buy a new 19T. Forged pistons are not an option on my B205R as ive already bought a complete B234 engine to steal the bottom end and cams out of and i want to go to 2.3 anyway for the lazy and torquey delivery.

The engine spec im building is the same as my friends and works very well for him but he uses a TD05HR16G-9.8cm2 with bosch greens etc Its a very quick car and is certainly not laggy.

Cams are something ill have to consider but i dont really want anymore than 400bhp as i just wont see the benefit of going anymore as i never drive above 100mph
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Old 11-17-2011, 05:53 AM   #13
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I have had the chance to spend 2 hours on my dyno with the Viggen and compare 2871.64 and 3071.64 back to back without even untying the car. Same overrequest software, and matching oil temps etc.
More data here: GenuineSaab.com Gallery :: Gt3071-500hp
Roughly 50 more even on slightly less base boost. R1-3 are 2971, 4-6 3071
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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Old 11-17-2011, 06:25 AM   #14
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I figured you had dyno sheets like that.... looks like at about 3100 RPM's the two turbo start seperating in their power delivery.....

When I originally purchased my 3071r I think in 2002 or something like that the shop that did my autronic ecu tining was a importer of the GT turbo's. If I recall that was where I first heard the 3071r spools quicker vs the 2871r.
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Old 11-17-2011, 12:35 PM   #15
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you could disect your b205r to a bare block and put all the b234 parts in... i.e. crank, rods and pistons? I'm doing the reverse of that with my car right now putting b235 crank rods and forge pistons in a b204 block because my block was damaged
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Old 11-17-2011, 12:56 PM   #16
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Wow so many replies

Regarding the turbo, I dont really fancy going down the 19T route as i dont really like the TD04 design. Ive had 2 x 19Ts in the past and didnt get on with them TBH plus for the price im paying for the GT3071R it would cost me more to buy a new 19T. Forged pistons are not an option on my B205R as ive already bought a complete B234 engine to steal the bottom end and cams out of and i want to go to 2.3 anyway for the lazy and torquey delivery.

The engine spec im building is the same as my friends and works very well for him but he uses a TD05HR16G-9.8cm2 with bosch greens etc Its a very quick car and is certainly not laggy.

Cams are something ill have to consider but i dont really want anymore than 400bhp as i just wont see the benefit of going anymore as i never drive above 100mph
the td04 is solid and is easily rebuilt. you have everything for it already too if you have aero or hpt. in usa you can get a td04 built to a 19t for around $300 plus rebuild it before $50-100. but you need atleast the 6cm housing. you could find one for $50usd at some junkyards. or buy the 7cm for $150 new

thats $400-500 for a 400bhp turbo and you dont need custom manifold, down pipe, lines etc.

if you buy a used gt30 its atleast $400 plus it doesnt bolt up with everything

and if your buddy has that turbo you will spool alot faster than him with td04 19t. bigger isnt always better for street. if you make 200hp before he does hes gotta catch up to you

i was saying swap internals from t5 motor into your t7 motor. not buy forged. the piston is the same between b204r and b234r. so swap the crank and rods and youve stroked a 2.0 into a 2.3

i know the 3071 will make more power than 19t but it spools slower. and anything over 330whp is a waste on fwd street imo unless your doing 100mph+ or drag racing.

alot of people are into peak horsepower and they think higher the better but thats wrong. esp on fwd.

and internal wastegates suck
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Old 11-17-2011, 12:58 PM   #17
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I figured you had dyno sheets like that.... looks like at about 3100 RPM's the two turbo start seperating in their power delivery.....

When I originally purchased my 3071r I think in 2002 or something like that the shop that did my autronic ecu tining was a importer of the GT turbo's. If I recall that was where I first heard the 3071r spools quicker vs the 2871r.
if the 2871 was .86 ar it will spool slower than the .64 all day. but 2871 .64 spools fatser than 3071 .64 im pretty sure nicks graph shows that
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:06 PM   #18
 
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the td04 is solid and is easily rebuilt. you have everything for it already too if you have aero or hpt. in usa you can get a td04 built to a 19t for around $300 plus rebuild it before $50-100. but you need atleast the 6cm housing. you could find one for $50usd at some junkyards. or buy the 7cm for $150 new

thats $400-500 for a 400bhp turbo and you dont need custom manifold, down pipe, lines etc.

if you buy a used gt30 its atleast $400 plus it doesnt bolt up with everything
You're going to need a bigger downpipe anyway, so why not get one with a V-band connection instead of the crappy, rust-prone three-bolt flange? A stainless V-band flange $20. Welding might be $40-50. Oh, and crap! Thanks, Mr. Turbo Knowledge, I'd better tell my GT30 on the stock manifold that it actually doesn't bolt up to the stock manifold that it actually bolts up to. Whew!

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and if your buddy has that turbo you will spool alot faster than him with td04 19t. bigger isnt always better for street. if you make 200hp before he does hes gotta catch up to you
Flash some numbers instead of your ass, son. There's not much of a spool difference at all, and there's a huge increase in torque with the GT30

Quote:
i know the 3071 will make more power than 19t but it spools slower. and anything over 330whp is a waste on fwd street imo unless your doing 100mph+ or drag racing.
See above.

Quote:
alot of people are into peak horsepower and they think higher the better but thats wrong. esp on fwd.

and internal wastegates suck
Weren't you the person pimping the whole bolt-up aspect, and now you're bitching about internal WGs?

Pick a side, son....
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:10 PM   #19
 
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if the 2871 was .86 ar it will spool slower than the .64 all day. but 2871 .64 spools fatser than 3071 .64 im pretty sure nicks graph shows that
I feel like fucking Foghorn Leghorn when I read your posts.

I say, reading is not your strong point, son.... Ya gotta skip the pictures once in a while and twist your head around the letters and numbers. Ya gotta read, son!

Read the first sentence in Nick's post.


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Old 11-17-2011, 01:21 PM   #20
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Ok Pitman,

Lots to think about, As said earlier i do want to sell my B205R as a complete low mileage engine which will see a bit of a return on the project rather than swap the crankshaft over and rods from another engine, I got a complete B234, Complete T7 head, T7 sump and T7 timing cover for 200.

The GT3071R im buying is a brand new item that was bought but never fitted and im getting it for half the price, It also comes with a downpipe with 3" V-Band fitted, Taliaferro 1/2" header flange, 5 bolt to 3" V-band and oil restrictors etc....Basically everything needed to mount upto my stock manifold.......It would be a no brainer to go with the Garrett especially when a 19T costs as much to buy and is inferior IMO compared to GT series turbo.

I aprreciate yours and everyone elses feedback
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