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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 04-04-2011, 06:27 PM   #1
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More breathing with larger plenum

Few pics of new Plenum, will try and get on they dyno sometime soon to see how its working.

John
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File Type: jpg New Plenum 001.jpg (261.7 KB, 141 views)
File Type: jpg New Plenum 003-2.jpg (252.7 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg New Plenum 013.jpg (291.8 KB, 117 views)
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:39 PM   #2
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Nice! Does this mean you found the point where the stock manifold is maxed out on flow?
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:42 AM   #3
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I think it just means that things can get much better than what the stock one can offer
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:36 AM   #4
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Fair enough
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:44 AM   #5
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excuse my language, but fuck! Looks very nice!

whats the volume of the plenum, and are you planning of reproducing (if you are, im in)
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:46 AM   #6
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That one came from overseas, just like the exhaust manifold. More info will probably pop up for it when Vigge chimes in
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:38 PM   #7
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Looks nice, I always like the audi motorsport intakes like that. You don't have the cams that Vigge was running with that intake though. Or are you going to 276s also?

Interesting to see some real data from this setup when you start tuning it on E85. Should be fast with the Close ratio Quaife gearbox too. Looks light. I see the cutup hood, and blocked cowl vents, deleted wipers etc. INtercooler looks huge, With that big of turbo how much pressure drop did you have ont he ETS? It is working well for me still.
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:11 PM   #8
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What!? looks cool but excuse my ignorance..........whats it do?
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:27 AM   #9
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Looks nice, I always like the audi motorsport intakes like that. You don't have the cams that Vigge was running with that intake though. Or are you going to 276s also?

Interesting to see some real data from this setup when you start tuning it on E85. Should be fast with the Close ratio Quaife gearbox too. Looks light. I see the cutup hood, and blocked cowl vents, deleted wipers etc. INtercooler looks huge, With that big of turbo how much pressure drop did you have ont he ETS? It is working well for me still.
You do not miss much I had to drop some weight to offset the full cage and the cams are the same as you, 276 enem hydraulic and the audi racing plenum does look cool, has 3 spaces from the top snorkle to bottom plenum and its a audi racing copy, put it on a mustang dyno yesterday and it did not like it for some reason, did the same thing as dynojet, would make full boost of 32psi and fall back to 26psi and hold. Says we made 80whp more with new cams, new plenum and larger intercooler, but not sure its accurate. Power band was moved to the right at least 500rpm with new hw.

I was having a problem with the ETS at elevation, I reach the choke line of the turbo and the hw limits in general much faster at elevation. Probably fine at sea-level. Got my new 1600 high impedence injectors dialed in a little better and will have enough to travel to sea-level this season.

I am curious about real word data too, it pulls hard all the way to 8k, but not sure what my power band looks like since the dyno went haywire. It was scary too, the car was dancing all over the dyno and the front staps would get lose and hang there during the hard pull of the turbo boost. Kind of scary for sure !

John
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File Type: jpg 626whp-mustang%20003.jpg (241.1 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg 626whp-mustang%20004.jpg (199.6 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg 626whp-mustang%20005.jpg (262.2 KB, 30 views)
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:46 AM   #10
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I would find a new dyno shop. Thats near worthless data and sounds like strapping was a problem. Mine at 600+ whp was fine on 205 P6s.

The 1600s are nice but still $800 ouch. I picked up a couple sets for local cars. Im going cheap, 1000s up top and 630s in the head @4bar should work.
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:34 PM   #11
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What a waste of time, took off a half day from my day job, got the car on the trailer, drove 30 miles to dial in the a/f and test the rev limit and check the power curve. I guess one out of three is not bad

I went to the counter and he said, ok what should we do here? I was thinking it should be no charge as I did not get any usefull data from the dyno, but I did get to dial it in via- wideband to ecu, so that helped.

The injectors are only 439 for a set of 4.

John
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:08 AM   #12
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Looks great! I have the same AmWorks item now on my 9k. As yet un-dynoed.

It's been built will longer 50mm runners, same 3.5 litre plenum but moving the 9k from 51mm to 64mm TB.

I lost 1 to 1.5 degree advance before knock (99% sure this is the runners) but seat of the pants says more torque for less / same boost. Time will tell.

Really interested in your results but hard to tell when more than one thing changed.

Apologies for the repost of the pics but this one lets people see what it looks like out of the car / compared to the original 9k mani.
As you can see I had fun with the GM throttle body and keeping my cruise control!




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Old 04-07-2011, 06:27 AM   #13
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Yea, the only way to know for sure what is going on is to dyno with stock manifold and then with new manifold. I did a lot of research on manifolds and just making it bigger does not help in most cases. One guy made a nice 4" tube plenum, cut stock runners off and welded them in place, he lost 15whp and 400rpm in spool-up.

They then tested a bunch of different one and the testing showed its about design much more and runner length. In the end, some top dollar intakes gained as much as 50-75whp, depending on boost and power level, this was Evo testing in the 650whp to 750whp range, reving to 9500rpm.

So, the design of the manifold I have is a Audi racing knock-off, not sure how well it performs, but the initial testing is showing with my new enem 276cams and plenum, the rpm band has moved to the right a good 500-800rpm and the power is up around 80whp, but nothing confirmed for sure. Will see how it runs on the track, it does seem to be making a good bit more power, it really sings up to 8k now, pulls hard all the way...

John
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:52 AM   #14
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yes - complete gamble for me.

1) Does the standard 9k manifold restrict flow at 500chp.
2) Do the longer runners mess up any benefits gained from the larger plenum
3) Will the longer runner resonate horribly somewhere... or help me.
4) Is the larger TB a waste of time.
5) Running 7k limit may not make much use of it

I've had to add more fuel through the midrange to keep the same AFR so this is potentially a good sign.

John - you need to take those cams out and try back to back
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:18 PM   #15
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Ok, here is the posting with all the testing, just dyno testing with the same car on the same dyno, good solid dyno testing data, there was a theme that developed in design, runner length, it still may hold true, longer runners = more torque, shorter runners for higher hp.

The better designs lost almost no spool up and made good 50-75whp gains, the others lost or made little gains and lost spool up.

Read this and it should enlighten you. The trumphet shaped runners seem to help too.

Intake manifold dyno tests and facts only.
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:08 PM   #16
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great link John - thanks. Amazing how visually quite similar design can have such huge differences in power.
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:26 PM   #17
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I think that demonstrates how important design and velocity is and how just going bigger does not help in many cases, you really need some clay and good testing methods to make small design changes to really improve power without killing the spool-up. I think the ending Magnus Stg 5 design looks similar to the style we have, but that is only the outside, not sure what is going on in the inside. It seems there is a plenum size that works best at a certain power and rpm range and a good runner length that works best at a certain rpm and power range.

After that, its all about testing, adding space here, removing it there, he seemed to think equal distribution between runners did very little and the flow bench did not help much either. Having a good testing facility might be the only way to really dial in a intake manifold that produces more power without big losses down low. Just bolting up a big plenum is not the best idea, it may actually hurt hp and cause a loss in spool-up,

John

P.S. You can see from the trollspeed design, its not huge and its more about velocity and this manifold has supported many 800bhp+ engines.
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:17 PM   #18
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Yes - I'd seen that one too. And I note it has pretty long runners which I would expect to resonate at some point - maybe there's some rpm tuning going on too.

i did follow the calculations for mine and from valve to plenum I'm about 250mm / 10". With my 256 cam this 'should' give a resonance at about 6600rpm to might lift peak a little. Or it might not work at all....
(tried various forumas).

Doing it again, I'd put flush intake trumpets on the plenum floor but the build was already massively time consuming....

As you say - the only way for real success is take a chunk of time and start doing trial and error.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:37 PM   #19
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I wish I had some of the high tech testing equipment companies use, building multiple intake manifolds is way too much work and effort for me and it looks like the flow bench is not very helpful, I have heard this from other racing shops, just because you show an increase in flow on the bench does not mean that equals hp in the real world. One shop was talking about the head some and how they actually go for velocity and add in material in the "right" areas to improve velocity and increase performance, just opening it up can actually hurt flow.

I guess that is why some consider it a black art and the secrets are not often shared.

John
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:36 PM   #20
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Well mine made the same power. Still out of fuel. So waiting on the pump should be in next monday.
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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