GT28R installed.....Update, shaft play - The Saab Link Forums

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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 08-19-2005, 01:59 PM   #1
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GT28R installed.....Update, shaft play

Update Page 2

Hello all, Well it has been about 4 months in the making, but I finally got my GT28R installed on my T5 900. This has been a complete nightmare, both cost and time wise!! and not even done.

Here is my problem.... I am only getting about 10psi.. this is with a fully closed wastegate ( pressure line removed) And I dont even get that until about 3500 RPM. Keep in mind this is on a stock ECU (for the time being), that until this point was holding 20 psi with the T25 (via MBC of course). The install has been a combined effort from alot of shops. The intake side of the turbo is 2.5'' at the bottom, where it goes to 3'' to meet the ugly stock rubber pipe (temporarily of course) The hose that goes from the turbo to the IC is small! it is 2'' where it meets the turbo all the way until it does its full almost 180 degree turn then it is flared out to a 2.25 elbow to the IC. Anyone think that this might be part of the problem??? is that pipe just too small? there is a pic attached, noticed it has that bend to wrap around the oil cooler lines.

I am leaning more towards that little Turbo to IC pipe. But, the shop I got the turbo from says that there is not enough fuel going to the engine, i.e. not enough combustion going on to spin the turbo (this is a .64 turbine- and he says it does not have anything to do with the displacement, rather just what I said above.)

Here are the pics. BTW 3''DP to 2.5'' exhaust and custom aluminum IC (supposedly good up to 350 hp). Anyone, PLEASE chime in your thoughts, this is driving me crazy, I am starting to lose sleep!! Oh and this is why my car wasn't at SOC even though I was....it sucked without it
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Old 08-19-2005, 05:44 PM   #2
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My guess is boost leak. There's no way you "aren't getting enough fuel" for more than 10 psi.
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Old 08-19-2005, 06:51 PM   #3
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1.Check for boost leaks.
2.Your wastegate line isn't connected.
3.Check your MBC (Dawes Device) and make sure it is set high enough or get the BPC solenoid back on there and check then.
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Old 08-19-2005, 06:52 PM   #4
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Also:How are you running 20psi when stock fuel cut is 15.5 psi?This is not possible unless the ECU has been altered.
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Old 08-19-2005, 10:05 PM   #5
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Thanks for the advice a12, answers for those...
1) I am in the process of looking for leaks...already found one...What is the best way to look for leaks??
2) Wastegate line was disconnected in that shot because my MBC, when hooked up, was only boosting 3-4 psi. then when I disconnected it I got some more boost. I am going to hook the bpc back up tom and see what happens, thnx.
3) MBC is set high enough, actually has a stiffer spring than what came with it, because the one that came with it was only a 20psi. spring.

Also I really cant give you a definate answer for why my stock fuel cut is 20-21psi. I realize thats not "right", but alot of us at this high altitude find that 17-18 psi cut is fairly common. I've had this chat with quite a few people and no one really knows, all I know is that trionic is able to fuel it with no problems at all. ECU has not been altered, I have a spare ECU I got off of Ebay that I can also boost to 20 with no problem. Thanks for the advice though guys, keep it coming.
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Old 08-19-2005, 10:20 PM   #6
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with these kind of upgrades I would reccomened getting a tuned ECU
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Old 08-20-2005, 06:32 PM   #7
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I would recomend it as well. Obviously I am not going to ge my full potential, but that isnt my point or problem at this point in time. My plan was to have it tuned before SOC but that wasnt a possibility. And why not see just how much power I can get out of the stock ECU, just for the hell of it :P Anyone have anymore advice?
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Old 08-20-2005, 08:07 PM   #8
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to test for leaks, I wold suggest going to s shop who has one of those smoking machines, it pumps smoke into the system & if there are no leaks you will see it come out the air filter only.
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Old 08-22-2005, 03:48 PM   #9
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Is it possible that the car is getting the volume of air it requires from the GT28R at only 10 PSI??????

If your ECU is a stock T5 programmed for the T-25 turbo your car is probably running lean and already has all the air it can use. I would also suspect a leak somewhere in the system, but figured I'd throw out the other possibility as well.

Does the car feel slower, as fast, or quicker than before the upgrade? Is it possible the CHRA has already sustained damage? Have you tried a known good BPC valve? Have you tried a new DI cassette?
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Old 08-22-2005, 04:30 PM   #10
 
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I think CO Saab nailed it.

I wish you would have said somethign earlier!!! I make all my mistakes so that other people can learn from them!

For about two months before SOC, I used my stock ECU with my 16T turbo and mods (DP, IC, full exhaust) and I was getting a boost cut midway in the yellow and fuel cut at 4,000 RPM. The car handled like a slug.

With the new ECU, it's a whole different ballgame.
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Old 08-22-2005, 07:02 PM   #11
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I was waiting to hear from you CO! Hows the car man? I gotta see this thing. Anyways, about my car, I cant even begin to tell you how long it was at "the shop", they did a good job, there were just some loose ends that needed to be tied up. When I first picked up the car it was not boosting AT ALL, I mean not a single psi. soo... I finally found out that the flange coming off of the turbo did not have a gasket, and it got warped during welding and was not sitting flat at all, so after putting a gasket there I have max boost of 5 psi, with the bpc. I am assuming there is still a leak, ya? I really really really hope the CHRA has not been damaged, what are the possibilities of this happening (i.e. what could have caused it) and how can I find out if it is? Right now at 5 psi, the car feels slightly faster than stock, but not even close to as fast as it was before the turbo swap. My plans right now are all over the place, apparently TEC cant even look at it until mid october- which is just laughable, then I was thinking about having it smoke tested for leaks, or maybe going to MAC to see if they can help. I really dont know though right now, this is not what I expected right off the bat. What would you suggest I do?

Mike- you make a good point, however, I'm not getting a boost cut or fuel cut, it cant boost high enough for either to happen. And what about when I have no boost controller and wastegate line removed and im only at 8psi. could that still somehow link to the ECU you think? this is slowly driving me mad!
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Old 08-22-2005, 07:59 PM   #12
 
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Saabn, this is a strange one....

If the ECU is seeing too much air from that big snail, then it will adjust fuel and boost accordingly. Have you tried to floor the pedal to see whether you get protective boost/fuel cut? I was getting sluggish performance and tried this, thinking that I needed to adjust the ECU by doing a couple of adaptation runs. I put the spurs on it and slowwwwww spool, sloooow spool, then a couple of seconds of something like thrust, then the boost needle ticked back down toward the white.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:57 AM   #13
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Exactly Mike, The Ecu could be seeing enough air im sure, however, i still dont understand why even w/out any kind of boost controller i still have 5 psi. Thanks for your input though- I need all of the outside opinions I can get, im too tied up in this and starting to lose perspective, I really need to just pick an ECU and get it. I have done adaptation runs....When I floor it around say 2k it jumps a tiny bit, then when it hits 3k it just feels like it got kicked in the gut, sluggish sluggish then about 4k to redline it is at 5psi. and kinda pulling. KINDA. I dont know if that helps better depict the problem here, but thats what happens. I mean it spools fairly quick to 5psi, but absolutely no more than that. It really almost feels like they gave me the wrong turbo haha, as if it is too big, but that cant be it- thats just what it feels like. Man I gotta figure this out! Anyone know anything about the stock wastegates that come on the GT28 turbos? base boost setting and all that good stuff....
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:16 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saabn
Exactly Mike, The Ecu could be seeing enough air im sure, however, i still dont understand why even w/out any kind of boost controller i still have 5 psi. Thanks for your input though- I need all of the outside opinions I can get, im too tied up in this and starting to lose perspective, I really need to just pick an ECU and get it. I have done adaptation runs....When I floor it around say 2k it jumps a tiny bit, then when it hits 3k it just feels like it got kicked in the gut, sluggish sluggish then about 4k to redline it is at 5psi. and kinda pulling. KINDA. I dont know if that helps better depict the problem here, but thats what happens. I mean it spools fairly quick to 5psi, but absolutely no more than that. It really almost feels like they gave me the wrong turbo haha, as if it is too big, but that cant be it- thats just what it feels like. Man I gotta figure this out! Anyone know anything about the stock wastegates that come on the GT28 turbos? base boost setting and all that good stuff....
GT28RS comes with a 1.0bar wastegate actuator, not sure what the 28R is delivered with.
Basically you can have two faults, like listed above.
1) the compressor does not deliver boost
2) you're leaking the delivered boost
When you drive around with "W" hose (wastegate actuator) disconnected the ECU does not have any tools to control boost besides fuel cut and if that does not occur you can pretty much rule out that the ECU would be behind this.
I believe that the GT28R does not fit with out relocating the wastegate actuator?
If so have you checked that it is OK, now after relocating it? How tight is the wastegate? it should be so tight that you open with it by hand but with fair ammoung of effort, baseboost ~0.5bar. If the wastegate opens easy you should adjust the lenght of the road to get tighter.


I
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:42 AM   #15
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I think you should pull the ducting off the turbo and check that compressor wheel,make sure it spins freely,with engin off of course.
If there is a lot of drag then the chra could be crapped out.
Also check base boost setting-the wastegate should be completely closed with the engine off + an addt'l 3 or 4 turns in (rough estimate).Do you have good gas in the car?Was anything left in the plumbing that could be causing low/no boost,like a rag?I did this by accident when I installed my new turbo,I had liek no boost whatsoever.If you rev the engine using the throttle body,you can see post intercooler hose collapse if there is a lot of restriction.Kind of a long shot but if one of those mechanics left a rag in there or something that would def. give you similar symptoms to what you are saying.
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Old 08-24-2005, 11:08 AM   #16
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Ben,
You should have TEC (or preferably a better turbo shop) make you an adjustable wastegate actuator of the proper length. The guys had to fabricate one to accomodate clocking your turbo, and could not retain the adjustability with what we had to work with. If the rod is a little too long, the spring may not be providing enough force to keep the wategate closed, even with the hose disconnected. Just take the actuator to them and tell them that you need and adjustable one about "this" long. I had to do this for a big turbo install on my previous SAAB and it set me back around $70 IIRC.

One thing after another in this hobby. You'll get it right soon.

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Old 08-24-2005, 01:29 PM   #17
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Hey Andy, I think you and chris are right on this thing. I would prefer not to go to TEC for some obvious reasons but I probably will have to.Thanks again for all of your help, especially chris, dwane and rick, You guys did some awsome stuff. I'll give Chris a call later this week so we can talk more about this WG problem in detail. Hope all is well at the shop, and hopefully things are alright w/ out Jay. It is one thing after another! but yes It will get right sooner or later. Thanks
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Old 08-25-2005, 09:07 AM   #18
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If you have removed the possibility of a boost leak and you're still not getting good boost with the BPC removed from the loop, I'd say you might have a serious problem.

As a side note how tight is your intake setup? If the intake has leaks then the car will not boost so good ,but not this bad either. I found this out years ago when i fit my first BB turbo. A custom metal setup from filter to compressor housing is probably a good idea anyway. be sure no rubber/silicone/plastic is collapsing under boost.

Assuming the other things are done, you should wire shut the wastegate. Be sure it can't open and take the car out for a spin. Hit the gas and take her up to ~5.3K RPM in third or fourth. (be careful running it too hard or letting off the gas too rapidly) This eliminate the possibility of a weak actuator/actuator arm.

If you still don't see a least a spike to around 1.3 Bar then I'm gonna guess the CHRA is toast or, gasp, something inside the engine. Possibly a blown CAT, but then the stock snail wouldn’t spin so hard. Scrap that, if the car boosts like crazy with the stock turbo then you don't have a problem with the CAT or internals. I'd put my finger on the CHRA. Every Garrett CHRA I've seen blow will let the car boost to ~.9 Bar. or 10-12 PSI. There are 4 I've had direct knowledge of. Any foreign debris damage can cause this. Improper lubrication due to bad lines/connections causing leaking oil or even dirty oil ruining the bearings is another common reason. You stated the flange from the turbo was warped, is this the flange around the compressor? If so, your turbo may have ingested unfiltered air and this can easily damage BB turbos. Unfortunately the only way to verify this is take the turbo off and bring it back to TEC for further evaluation. I don't know how to tell if it's blown. TEC is changing locations so Oct seems reasonable to me, assuming the month of Sept is all packing, moving and re-organizing the new digs. It's not like changing apartments, with some 2-5 million worth of inventory and equipment it's gonna take some time.
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Old 08-25-2005, 10:45 AM   #19
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Did you check the tension of the wastegate already???
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Old 09-04-2005, 06:42 PM   #20
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Alright guys. I wired shut the wastegate and got a solid 10psi of boost, this was the first time in a while the car felt fast. It was laggy but it pulled up top, around 3800-4000 rpm. Now, this obviously didnt fix the problem, but it helped.

The Main problem right now, however, is a HUGE issue with the 3 bolt flange connecting to the high pressure side of the turbo. 2 of the bolts are stripped!!!! The other one is fine because it is the right thread pitch, but the other two were trashed during installation. Now, I am going to go ahead and make a presumption that this WILL cause a boost leak and that is why I am only getting 10psi (and going down as we speak BTW) with a closed WG.

Now, what are everyone's thoughts on fixing this, Should I just pull the turbo and take it to a machine shop or somewhere that can remachine/rethread the holes, or is there some kind of way for me to keep the turbo in and somehow fix it (looking for a miracle, I know). Please, anyone, let me know what you think I should do on this one.

Here is a quick pic just to show what I am talking about if you dont know.
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