Drag car adventures. - The Saab Link Forums

Go Back   The Saab Link Forums > Saab NG900 '94-'98 and 9-3 '99-'02 Forum > Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3

Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

SaabLink.net is the premier Saab Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05-29-2010, 09:51 AM   #1
Nick Taliaferro
Elder
 
GenuineSaab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Springfield, MO USA
Posts: 3,232
Send a message via MSN to GenuineSaab Send a message via Skype™ to GenuineSaab
Drag car adventures.

Finding a few spare minutes out of the week we were able to get the drag car back on the road with the new twin disk 7.5" clutch and four speed f25. It also has the new style race rear mount and short shifter. ( We stole shifter housing for a customer. SEND BACK CORES!) The deleted balance shafts, 2.0 L short stroke and the super light new flywheel make it rev change perfect and quick. The lower inertia of the small clutch disks and gears really show. On the street it was sick! Dropping effortlessly into gear at any speed. Steve agreed, big smiles on everyone. The old e85 made it even better with the popping and fireballs. So decided to make the Dragstrip. Going without a trailer. Threw the tires / tools in the truck. 10 gal of fresh E85 to add at the track and drove there ~30min. Car is civil in rush hour traffic. Bit more pedal pressure than a B235R but ok. Open down pipe is a bit much is all. Very fast even just cracking the throttle. We get there and the tracks packed. Big boys and the shootout cars. Stand behind a few in the starting line. Close, Back like 4 ft. . Ok. Thanks for dragging me up there! My sponsor Dyno billboard is sick but not up yet. Ok. We decide to head home. Steve drives this time I get the truck, just leaving we stop at the light next to a chick in an Acura. Ear to ear grins around. Steve just barely gets on it. Sounds great. Good fireball on the one two shift. Can't even hear the turbo yet. Then sparks and a fluid trail. What! I know right! WTF. Found on road hot: one b204 rod cap, one rod bearing flat, 4qts gtx, one driveshaft bracket a tow truck and you get the rest... Reason for everything. Right Ed? Would have been in the doghouse for oiling the track on a big night. The parts are in the back of the truck still. Will get those up soon.

The 9mm stock rob bolts are pretty sturdy but accumulated stress caught up with us or we did more damage last year when the last Spec setup exploded. Either way at least the clutch and gearbox troubles are going away. Now time to build a B205 based motor with some technology.

Working on uploading the Supercharged viper tuning on the dyno in HD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJMu5TiAaCI and twin turbo lsx nova with the headers glowing after that.. Some sweet video of the drag car will be up soon too.

The media:
Before /obviously/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D74mgrhTkBg

Somethings missing..


Oh thats where it went...
__________________
Nicholas Taliaferro

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs

Last edited by GenuineSaab; 05-29-2010 at 10:47 AM.
GenuineSaab is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-29-2010, 12:37 PM   #2
Flirting With TSL Addiction
 
Moosepuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 422
DAMN that sucks... you and Vigge blowing stuff up..... Sorry for the stroke of bad luck guys.
__________________
06 W211 E55 AMG (his)
08 9-3, Aero vert, 2.8t(hers)
Gone but not forgotten: several NG' and C's
Moosepuck is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2010, 03:06 PM   #3
Elder
 
comtrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Salt Lake City, UT/Kansas City, MO
Posts: 2,347
Send a message via MSN to comtrang
Oh, suck! That means I get to see the carnage next week because THAT is when I hope to stop by.
__________________
Daily Driven '00 Saab 9-3
Bone stock
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

SOLD '97 Saab 900SE
Stock 2.0
Holset HX35


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

-Branden
comtrang is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2010, 04:09 PM   #4
JZW
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Boulder Colorado
Posts: 3,153
That really sucks! The season is not too far gone, not even half way yet, get it back together if you can, I think the 205 engine shows potential, looked at that myself and will have to try a 2.0 when the ol 2.3 gives out. That is amazing that you and vigge went out in the same week, might be something to do with high rpm, but its hard to say.

I have mine just about ready for round 2 and will give things a shot at next weeks tuner mayham, hope I am not the three that comes in threes

John
__________________
b234r ng900, E-85 Holset Super [email protected] mph a mile high 645whp/650wtrq Sae Denver
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JZW is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-29-2010, 04:40 PM   #5
Elder
 
saabkid37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A big city with bright lights
Posts: 8,796
how did i miss vigge blowing something up?



__________________
Quote:
The tragedy of idiot-proofing: Mother nature responds to every product improvement by introducing a higher performance idiot.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
saabkid37 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2010, 06:50 AM   #6
Moderator
Elder
 
Tweek's Turbos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 10,303
Send a message via AIM to Tweek's Turbos
Do you need some shifter housings?

I could nab a few and send em your way.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delorean
- pretend you are watering delicate plants...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAABseanSCANIA
can be prone to failure due to increased localized stresses in the hole penetrations
Tweek's Turbos is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2010, 08:48 AM   #7
Flirting With TSL Addiction
 
kingofkrunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Kanata!! EH
Posts: 616
WOW! that sucks to hear Nick

2 of the big boys breaking back to back ... thats not good .... Like JZW said, season still has a lot left in her, you should try and get er up and running

Good Luck!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kingofkrunk is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2010, 09:38 AM   #8
Nick Taliaferro
Elder
 
GenuineSaab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Springfield, MO USA
Posts: 3,232
Send a message via MSN to GenuineSaab Send a message via Skype™ to GenuineSaab
The best part about the yellow block? Easy to spot the chunks on the highway.

Found both bearings. Look nice. So was a rod or rod bolt failure. Haven't got all the parts out yet. The piston pin is still intact with a bit of rod hanging off.

Block is cut from balance shafts all the way into the oil pan on the backside.

Branden, I don't think you will get to drive it this trip. Already have B235 to build next week.
__________________
Nicholas Taliaferro

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
GenuineSaab is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-31-2010, 02:32 PM   #9
Greek Mod
Site ModeratorElder
 
grkguy89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: williamsburg, va
Posts: 4,294,967,295
Send a message via AIM to grkguy89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweek's Turbos View Post
Do you need some shifter housings?

I could nab a few and send em your way.
ive got a spare one too
i would send it now if that would guarantee me the $140 price tag in the future (in other words whenever i get the money)
and then whenever i buy it and install it ill have another housing i could send in
__________________
97 900SE, JZW Stage HX35 w/m injection
Christos, it's my name, what can i say?

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Quote:
Current Activity: Moderating
grkguy89 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-01-2010, 12:59 PM   #10
a12
Flirting With TSL Addiction
 
a12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: connecticut
Posts: 770
Sorry to hear that Nick.
Do you think it was the rod bolts or the rod/cap itself that failed? Those were stock rods correct?
Vigge's looked like it was the rod that failed, not the bolts.

I almost retrofitted some ARP bolts to my rods when I had it all apart, but passed on it (budget build).
The RPM will make a rod bolt fail before torque will.
Hope you can get it back together quickly.
__________________
Reinforced rear axle completed and installed!
a12 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2010, 09:03 AM   #11
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by a12 View Post
Vigge's looked like it was the rod that failed, not the bolts.
I think my engine failure began from the bolts letting go. To this conclusion I have come since
-Piston has made contact with combusion chamers bellow area but not has not be shoot up in there since there is no other damage in the head.For the piston to travel too high and then back down does require the rod to "streach" or brige to open.
-The brige is pretty much unharmed
-Bolts have been broken in a way that is commonly known as a result of bolt failure.

Why the bolt(s) failed is not known, but can due to torquing and handling. Since Verdi did not (does not) deliver the Molly grease in their rod package normal oil was used and torque drawn to the value listed for "motor oil". One head builder knew to say that with there has been some "odd" bolt failures in race motorbikes with the same L19 ARP bolts when drawn to listed Tq with motor oil. The L19 is grumpy material for few reasons, it can become contaninated if not stored in oil (my came dry..), handled without gloves etc. Orver Tq will also make the fragile, and as the head builder said can happen with motor oil, thus not drawn past the listed Tq value.

So there is an increased risk that me and the second owner of the car will pay "learn money" for this failure, but wont be wizer until the bottom is taken apart and other bits and pieces investigated. However did already pass greeting to Verdi via Maptun thay would be nice if the ARP specked molly grease would follow along in the delivery among with tq values and bolts packed as ARP recommends. Does not help my case, but can help somebody else....
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2010, 09:34 AM   #12
Nick Taliaferro
Elder
 
GenuineSaab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Springfield, MO USA
Posts: 3,232
Send a message via MSN to GenuineSaab Send a message via Skype™ to GenuineSaab
Also the /new/ Arp moly lube is not the same as the /older/ stuff. Maybe we need to work with arp and use stretch measurements on the bolts. Much more reliable method. But takes specialized tools. Not expensive just special.


I have a b205 block and std pistons at the machineshop Nothing special. Might play with compression a bit. Didn't really want to go less compression than we had before. But only have junked b205s.
__________________
Nicholas Taliaferro

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
GenuineSaab is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2010, 10:44 AM   #13
Elder
 
DrewP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,021
I bet you could fine a used 0.0001" 2-3" needle-point mic for a decent price, lots of old and retired and passed machinist's tools come up for sale since a lot of people seem to be getting out of that trade lately.

Best,
Drew
__________________
(Former) Saab Tech / Competition Prep

Quote:
You still don't understand. This is like trying to explain calculus to a clam.
DrewP is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2010, 03:28 PM   #14
a12
Flirting With TSL Addiction
 
a12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: connecticut
Posts: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
I think my engine failure began from the bolts letting go. To this conclusion I have come since
-Piston has made contact with combusion chamers bellow area but not has not be shoot up in there since there is no other damage in the head.For the piston to travel too high and then back down does require the rod to "streach" or brige to open.
-The brige is pretty much unharmed
-Bolts have been broken in a way that is commonly known as a result of bolt failure.

Why the bolt(s) failed is not known, but can due to torquing and handling. Since Verdi did not (does not) deliver the Molly grease in their rod package normal oil was used and torque drawn to the value listed for "motor oil". One head builder knew to say that with there has been some "odd" bolt failures in race motorbikes with the same L19 ARP bolts when drawn to listed Tq with motor oil. The L19 is grumpy material for few reasons, it can become contaninated if not stored in oil (my came dry..), handled without gloves etc. Orver Tq will also make the fragile, and as the head builder said can happen with motor oil, thus not drawn past the listed Tq value.

So there is an increased risk that me and the second owner of the car will pay "learn money" for this failure, but wont be wizer until the bottom is taken apart and other bits and pieces investigated. However did already pass greeting to Verdi via Maptun thay would be nice if the ARP specked molly grease would follow along in the delivery among with tq values and bolts packed as ARP recommends. Does not help my case, but can help somebody else....
Who assembled the bottom end? Did you do it or witness them doing it?
What is this L19, is that one of ARP's alloys? Tensile strength?
I will look up the specification.
So you're saying the bolt torque listed is not actually reached when torquing with motor oil?
Did you use petroleum or synthetic? What viscosity?
You are running really high RPM so you are in a different realm then most of us. Your piston speed is much higher resulting in much higher axial load on those bolts. I wonder if rod bolts experiencing loads such as this should be prestretched or something. Do you think the bolt or nut came loose due to all the flex?
__________________
Reinforced rear axle completed and installed!
a12 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-03-2010, 04:16 PM   #15
Elder
 
saabkid37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: A big city with bright lights
Posts: 8,796
crap...i trust my honda motor at 9500rpm to arp's



__________________
Quote:
The tragedy of idiot-proofing: Mother nature responds to every product improvement by introducing a higher performance idiot.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
saabkid37 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2010, 09:33 AM   #16
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by a12 View Post
Who assembled the bottom end? Did you do it or witness them doing it?
What is this L19, is that one of ARP's alloys? Tensile strength?
I will look up the specification.
So you're saying the bolt torque listed is not actually reached when torquing with motor oil?
Did you use petroleum or synthetic? What viscosity?
You are running really high RPM so you are in a different realm then most of us. Your piston speed is much higher resulting in much higher axial load on those bolts. I wonder if rod bolts experiencing loads such as this should be prestretched or something. Do you think the bolt or nut came loose due to all the flex?
Assembled the whole engine together with the other owner of the car.
L19 specs you will find for instance at ARP webpage, but it special allow steel, tensile strength +220000psi
Bolts where drawn to listed torque for motor oil, then loosened and measured and then redrawn to listed Tq figure again. Wt30 oil was used.
Personally dont have experience of these bolts from earlier, but as I said one local head builder who is into racing and has seen/heard alot over the years, let us know that he is aware of some L19 bolt failures in engines motor oil has been used as lubricant during bolt fastening, while the same failures have not been seen in "same" engine when molly has been used. If you look at the Tq specs for Molly and motor oil the figures are alot higher for the later method and could imagine that the risk for it to go wrong is increaed.

If you compare my this years motor to last years, it seems a bit odd that the standard more hevier stuff (assembled from junk parts) did survived hundreds of runs to 8200-8300 and in the new with supposively stonger and lighter balanced stuff could not cope with 100 runs or so, majority with 8500rpm max, so I suspect and hope there will be a true cause to this failure.

I know many average Joe's could and would have driven a few summers without spaking the car as much as this one saw during the 3 days under the 3 week period the engine was a whole. It saw 20 dyno run and close to 100 tuning runs on the road with 2+bar boost.
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2010, 01:24 PM   #17
JZW
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Boulder Colorado
Posts: 3,153
You may be onto something, even the arp head studs are 80 ft-lbs with arp lube and 120 ft-lbs with motor oil, its tuff to get them all the way to 120 ft-lbs. I did read about them needing to be pre-stretched a few times before final torque. My arp studs did not come with the special moly lube, motor oil was the only real option...

John
__________________
b234r ng900, E-85 Holset Super [email protected] mph a mile high 645whp/650wtrq Sae Denver
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JZW is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2010, 03:48 PM   #18
a12
Flirting With TSL Addiction
 
a12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: connecticut
Posts: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
Assembled the whole engine together with the other owner of the car.
L19 specs you will find for instance at ARP webpage, but it special allow steel, tensile strength +220000psi
Bolts where drawn to listed torque for motor oil, then loosened and measured and then redrawn to listed Tq figure again. Wt30 oil was used.
Personally dont have experience of these bolts from earlier, but as I said one local head builder who is into racing and has seen/heard alot over the years, let us know that he is aware of some L19 bolt failures in engines motor oil has been used as lubricant during bolt fastening, while the same failures have not been seen in "same" engine when molly has been used. If you look at the Tq specs for Molly and motor oil the figures are alot higher for the later method and could imagine that the risk for it to go wrong is increaed.

If you compare my this years motor to last years, it seems a bit odd that the standard more hevier stuff (assembled from junk parts) did survived hundreds of runs to 8200-8300 and in the new with supposively stonger and lighter balanced stuff could not cope with 100 runs or so, majority with 8500rpm max, so I suspect and hope there will be a true cause to this failure.

I know many average Joe's could and would have driven a few summers without spaking the car as much as this one saw during the 3 days under the 3 week period the engine was a whole. It saw 20 dyno run and close to 100 tuning runs on the road with 2+bar boost.
Yeah it does seem odd that the weaker motor would survive abuse for a longer period of time.
Are these studs or bolts we are talking about?
I know it is critical when switching bolts or studs with a rod and cap to make sure that the bolt/stud holes line up exactly between the two halves. If they are off even a minute amount it will cause side loads on the studs which coule result in failure. I remember my machinist saying this-I was going to put ARP studs in my stock B234 tods for extra safety-kinda glad I didn't now.I reused the stock studs and rods, lubed and torqued with 10w-30 petroleum oil (Castrol I think)-no problems yet, but I'm not abusing the engine the way you are either.
I keep thinking waht if one of those nuts backed off due to bolt stretch? You have to prestretch the ARP head studs before you put them in, I wonder if you have to do the same with these. I know you said you tightened, then loosened then tightened again, but I wonder if that's not enough.
Why is oil such a problem with these studs?
Are their oil torque specs wrong? I wonder.
Did you search the internet to see if many people have had issues with these studs?
You said they were not oiled when you recieved them-how corroded were they when they came out of the package?
__________________
Reinforced rear axle completed and installed!
a12 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Saab Link Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Vehicle Info.
Enter your vehicle information (year, model, mods)
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
All content is copyright The Saab Link and it's original authors.


 

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.