Engine Vibration Continues-----Steering Play as well-----Insert Mad Face! - The Saab Link Forums

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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 10-08-2009, 03:14 PM   #1
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Engine Vibration Continues-----Steering Play as well-----Insert Mad Face!

Car=Automatic 2001 SE 9-3 HOT

So every Tranny/Engine mount installed is 8 months or newer. I have to really go back on my records, but I believe the trans mount went in 8 months ago, then the engine mounts about 2 months ago. I have not checked the trans mount, but I'm curious if it is already broken somehow???

Here has been and here is what continues to haunt me and my car:

1) SEVERE engine vibration at speeds of say, 10ish-mostly in the 20-35mph range. By severe, I literally mean that it feels like the engine is going to come out of the car. Ok, maybe it's not that bad, but during my trip yesterday, there were times I either wanted to strap a chain to the thing and somehow get it under control at the lower speeds OR just run it off a cliff. At higher speeds, this vibration is there, but it's not so bad...really negligable, though I know it exists and this fact alone, especially the vicious vibrations at lower speeds tells me the engine is not in control at higher speeds, hence, not making the stable and solid power it should be able to make.

2) I learned yesterday that my tie rod bushings were shot. I knew something was wrong in the steering section, but I didn't have a chance to get around to it until yesterday. So the new bushings went in, along with some new tie rod ends and some endlinks (just replacing older parts with newer for future prevention). After the bushings were installed, car aligned, the wheel still has play, not as bad as before, but it's entirely irrelevant because there's play and going around say turns or just normal driving for the matter, involves this play that makes the steering parts/handling not synch up to the way the wheel moves.

For example, say I am going around a turn, the wheel feels very loose while the suspension feels quite tight and in control. The steering "should" feel tight with the turn and not loose. I know how the car has felt in the past and when doing turns, it never felt this good going around turns which is a positive, but the negative is the steering play is so horrid that it has never felt so loose and not in synch with how it should feel when going around turns.

Also, say I am driving in a straight line, hands on the wheel, then let go of the steering wheel, the wheel will just throw itself a bit over to one side. It will sometimes start to pull to one side in particular (seems like a bad alignment job), but on a perfectly straight line, it maybe only pulls a very tiny bit, but the wheel literally throws itself off to the side (not near as far as it did prior to bushing install), but still there when it shouldn't be.



Questions:

1) Can trans mounts break or wear down after such a short time? I'm having a feeling that maybe the trans mount is broken already. I wanted to have a look at it yesterday but it was dark. Today my wife has the car.

Also, in terms of trying to get this engine under control, can I use this stuff here to make the mounts tougher: http://www.importnut.net/motormount.htm


2) Is there anything else that leads to severe engine vibration besides the mounts that I should be investigating? Again, it happens primarily in the 20-35mph or so region that I feel the engine literally feels like it's going to jump out of the car. Maybe I'm over-exaggerating, but I know what my highly modded Subaru with every poly bushing on the car brand new, every suspension part one can think of bolt on wise, along with coilovers feels like, and the car feels smoother than this Saab that is super smooth BUT with an engine that needs serious tie downs to keep it from moving/jumping, doing whatever kind of dancing it is trying to do especially at the lower speeds)))


3) With respect to the steering, is it possible the bushings were not torqued down correctly and is there something else I should be looking into that will produce a wheel that doesn't do the symptoms listed above and will actually feel like a normal wheel that remains centered, doesn't just flop to the side when I take my hands off of it, and doesn't feel like it is on its own while the suspension is taking a turn?


Thanks for the help!!!!

Sometimes I just want to burn this car to hell, but I cannot help but love it more than anything else I have had, even much faster and 1000X better handling cars. It sucks for handling and other things, but has something about it that other cars do not.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:54 PM   #2
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Ball joints in the control arms? That could easily be causing both a nasty vibration issue and your steering play if they were that worn out.

Only solution if that is the case is to replace the entire arm as they are not serviceable.



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Old 10-08-2009, 06:13 PM   #3
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Ball joints in the control arms? That could easily be causing both a nasty vibration issue and your steering play if they were that worn out.

Only solution if that is the case is to replace the entire arm as they are not serviceable.
When feeling all the suspension parts such as the control arms/tie rod ends (new)/endlinks (new)/tie rods/etc. etc. nothing shows any indication of the arms being worn/loose/etc. These things feel very strong.

Can the control arms have as much impact on the engine's vibration as say, three shot engine mounts? This is the level of vibration it feels like, especially at lower speeds. I wish I could describe it, but I can literally feel the engine moving back and forth specifically at lower speeds (I'll just say like 10-40mph with 15-35mph having the most vibration). 40-50mph still some decent vibration felt. 55+ it starts to decreast quite a lot. It goes from very intense feels the the engine is literally shaking/moving back and forth with severity, while the higher speeds, you can just sense the shaking, but the engine doesn't feel like it is pounding back and forth.

Is there any test or visual that can be done to the control arms to see if they are problematic?

Thanks!
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:41 PM   #4
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The steering issue may be a torn strut mount. Causing some extra play.

I'd recheck all the mounts, and make sure everything looks good and all is torqued down properly.
What brand mounts did you go with?
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Old 10-08-2009, 09:23 PM   #5
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The steering issue may be a torn strut mount. Causing some extra play.

I'd recheck all the mounts, and make sure everything looks good and all is torqued down properly.
What brand mounts did you go with?
I should have looked at the brand, but it was all we had locally from a shop. They were USA made which was interesting.

I'll have to look at the struts as they are pretty old and probably haven't been replaced.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:21 PM   #6
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Just an update. So the vibration still persists, but it doesn't seem to be as violent as it was. It is "definitely" the most notable at about 25-35mph. I have no idea why this particular speed gets the most trouble, but prior to this speed and after this speed the vibration is calmer. The thing that is most troublesome is that it clearly feels like the engine is vibrating in spite having all new engine mounts.

Is it possible that the car could use a tuning of the factory ECU? One thing I noticed as well as a person that had a Viggen at one time is how the car feels as fast if not faster than his Viggen, and definitely faster than the 9-3 (Same year car as mine) in his driveway. It looks like cylinder head work was done and maybe some other work was done. I'm curious if somehow something changed and the ECU never fully compensated for it???

In the very beginning of owning the car, the left side had a shimmering feel to it. Later, it got to be severe and the trans mount was replaced, though the shimmering was still there, just distributed throughout the car rather than concentrated on the left side.

I suppose since Jak is in the area, he could probably lift it up and even drive it to see what's up. Anyone else in OR that knows Saabs well, feel free to give me a PM and feel this thing out. Would love to have some feedback in real life as much as online feedback has been greatly helpful.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:41 PM   #7
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Have you checked your inner drivers/axles? I've heard they're notorious for failing on 900's/9-3's. I myself have to do the right side one on my 9-3 as there's vibration under medium to heavy throttle in lower-middle range speeds.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:08 PM   #8
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Have you checked your inner drivers/axles? I've heard they're notorious for failing on 900's/9-3's. I myself have to do the right side one on my 9-3 as there's vibration under medium to heavy throttle in lower-middle range speeds.
Both are brand new as of the time the left side trans mount was put on and both have about 1.5K miles on them.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:19 PM   #9
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i would def check your ball joints out.

my viggen lets just say felt CREEPY when i had bad ball joints, and it doesn't take much.

next time the car is in the air grab the wheel while standing under the car and apply pressure back and forth (trying to push and pull the bottom of the wheel in a lateral direction)

mine had just a tiny bit of movement but new ball joints made a world of difference in the confidence of the car.

bad ball joints can also contribute to vibrations that seem similar to a wheel being out of balance.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:39 AM   #10
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If you want to check engine mounts, go find a hill and park facing upward. Pop your hood open and watch between your hood and firewall to see if the engine moves a lot when you try going up hill.

I've used this technique on my old c900 and ng900.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:45 AM   #11
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I agree with bad balljoints, control arm bushings, etc. Also, check the stanchion arm bushes to the body of the car. A good alignment and wheel balance should also be on your list as well.
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:18 AM   #12
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Question

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Originally Posted by Adrenaline406 View Post
If you want to check engine mounts, go find a hill and park facing upward. Pop your hood open and watch between your hood and firewall to see if the engine moves a lot when you try going up hill.

I've used this technique on my old c900 and ng900.
Very interesting advise. So what you are saying is get onto a hill, open the hood up, and see if the engine is moving a lot while I move up the hill? See below where I have done my own test, though maybe insufficient one, where I put it into neutral and revved it a lot, feeling the vibrations throughout the rev range.

Last edited by Progression; 10-26-2009 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:53 AM   #13
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i would def check your ball joints out.

my viggen lets just say felt CREEPY when i had bad ball joints, and it doesn't take much.

next time the car is in the air grab the wheel while standing under the car and apply pressure back and forth (trying to push and pull the bottom of the wheel in a lateral direction)

mine had just a tiny bit of movement but new ball joints made a world of difference in the confidence of the car.

bad ball joints can also contribute to vibrations that seem similar to a wheel being out of balance.
Sound advice. What I plan to do is take my car over to a place tomorrow that is not the same shop, but same chain that did my alignment after putting on endlinks/tie rod ends/steering rack bushings. I'll also see if they can balance and even check my wheels to see if I have any issues with any berrings and also the wheels as well. I'm wondering if exhaust issues could be causing a lot of the vibration I've felt from the engine. I'll put down a new one on a list of possibilities.
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Old 10-26-2009, 02:15 AM   #14
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Here's some ideas on the engine vibration thing. First thing first is I have done what I thought would be a sign of engine vibration by simply having the car in neutral and revving really high...I know, kind of a mild abuse test, but even in neutral, I could feel the various engine vibrations. How can a car in neutral have be vibrating as much as it is if it isn't something engine related? Is a car in neutral still prone to vibrating the "weak" elements around the engine since all engine mounts are 2 months to 6 months new?

Here's some thoughts of my own though I don't know if these apply:

1) ECU may not be functioning accordingly. T7 suite may need a proper tuning because in spite I do not know past history on the car, it does look like a cylinder head or even entire engine was put into the car at one point. The heads look extremely new/clean like and another Saaber said they definitely were something more recently done. I'm curious if the car has somehow fallen out of a proper tune?


2) One thing I'm noticing, and it could be in my mind, but the back-pressure from the exhaust does not seem to be fluid...or, lets just say that there seems to be pressure in the exhaust system as if there may be a leak somewhere and the flow is not a consistent one. I am thinking that with a faulty exhaust part, this would easily cause engine vibration from the engine not being able to send proper airflow from turbo to the tail pipe...that interuption somewhere in the exhaust causing it to squeeze air out at some juncture along the exhaust and causing it to backfire. Since the vibration is most strongly felt at lower speeds, the car would be pushing air out a lot easier than when the car is up to speed. I'm no wizard and could be way off on this guess, but just a thought I had.


3) When I did a trans change, the banjo bolts were leaking. I have new trans lines and banjos coming and this will be fixed this week. I have noticed some leaking from either this or the oil.


4) Oil hose? that comes from under the dipstick that causes oil to drip ever so slightly was not dealt with. Person I talked to about this said it's not a big deal as it happens with all cars, but I think having this fixed so both the trans and the oil is not dripping ever so slightly would help a good bit.


5) For some reason, I think a big issue may be the power steering lines. Again, another area I have not researched enough, but my lines are shot in a few areas. I have hosing and a new reservoir coming. I don't think my reservoir is bad, but I decided to just get the reservoir since it'll be clean and I can do it all at once vs. keeping the existing reservoir in there. I know this is a power steering issue, but this is also a pressurized section of the car. Is it possible that this can lead to the vibratory issues with the engine? In a way it is a sorta similar concept as the exhaust not pressurizing the system properly, hence, producing a malfunction. It's obvious the power steering is inferior to what it should be. Sure, I have power steering, but it's not how it should be, obviously with how the hosing is cracked/leaking at a few different areas.


6) For whatever reason, since installing new rotors/pads, I have a sound from them. The front rotors literally sit about 1/8" from the wheel. Sure, it doesn't touch, but I get this certain sound I never heard with my old rotors. Not sure exactly what this sound is, where it is coming from, etc. but seems a bit peculiar to have such a sound. Maybe it is normal but I'm thinking it is not.


Of course the joints/arms/sanchion bushings/etc. etc. should be checked out, but I'm really starting to wonder if a majority of my engine vibration has to do with the exhaust system having a leak somewhere and would be putting pressure back vs. through...

I really need to localize this engine vibration issue because once I have the car working where it is not vibrating like it is, I can easily pinpoint the suspension bits, bushings, etc. other things that would be lending to vibratory issues. Just wish I knew what the problem with the engine vibrating is.


Sorry for the long write-up, but the car has had me puzzled, pouring money into things that will obviously be good for it in the long run, but still doing nothing for my engine vibration issues specifically at the lower speeds, but prevelant at any speed.
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:52 AM   #15
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I think this was brought to light in another thread... But if the head was done perhaps one of the cams is off by one tooth... THis would probably cause a whacky vibration and also bad MPG.
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Old 10-26-2009, 10:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Progression View Post
Very interesting advise. So what you are saying is get onto a hill, open the hood up, and see if the engine is moving a lot while I move up the hill? See below where I have done my own test, though maybe insufficient one, where I put it into neutral and revved it a lot, feeling the vibrations throughout the rev range.
You've the right idea, but i think it might help to put a load on the vehicle to see. Best of luck!!!

EDIT: check the wheel weights? did one fall off (as unusual as that is)?
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Old 10-27-2009, 03:29 AM   #17
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Updated info:

1) In Park mode, as one recommended to do, I had it revving and it produced a feeling on the back. I'll have to do this again in daylight when people are awake to see what exactly it is I felt. Besides this, the engine is extremely strong, clean, smooth. I felt little/no vibration at up to over 7K RPM on 3 tries. I tried different RPMs, but there was no response, like a dead calm engine, but up over 5-7K RPM it obviously makes sound and it sounds exceptionally clean.

2) Steering rack play still in effect...blah...

3) While I had my tires rotated to see if there were any bent wheels and to see if there was any play in the berrings/system, discovered clear strut markings in the rubber on the rear tires. I've swapped around tires a few times to get the better treaded tires up front, but I still think it's the rear struts and not the fronts since the fronts have had at least 2K miles on them and show none of the same wear in spite driving excessive speeds many times on them.

Question is whether I replace just the rear struts, rear struts+springs, or do all four just for the sake of it since I don't think any struts have been replaced though it seems odd that the rears would be shot prior to the fronts.


4) Air pressure was way off. 31psi on the driver's side and 36psi on the passenger's side...terrible. Proper inflation of all wheels and then a drive off after the wheel balance made for a vibratory ride, but less than how it has been...not a huge difference, but definitely a difference along with obvious more straight/direct driving.


5) I should put this into another thread I posted, but I recorded about 19mpg. This includes my wife's stop/go 2-3 mile roundtrips daily, along with going to this beautiful waterfall out in the boonies where I was drifting in the 01 9-3 Vert...ok, not drifting, but just e-brake pulls...LOL! Yep, I've treated the car with so much care and then after being out on roads and not knowing where we were, not being happy about the issues I've had with the car, I let some of my anal side go and just play around in it like I was in a Suby AWD off-road ride. So it was basically the combo of 10-50mph on gravel/dirt/one lane paved/etc. garbage backwoods roads along with some 25-100mph driving on the flats and through towns that make you go 25mph I'd say I drove the car quite abusively all in all especially in the gravel/mud/dirt and non-stop tight turns for like 50 of the clocked 134 total miles and averaged right at the 19mpg mark which is not exactly rewarding, but it doesn't seem that bad since this is pre-tire inflation/rotation/inspection of berrings and finding the clear markings of the rear tires showing bad strut wear on them.

Now it's time to figure out what I should do suspension wise as this is our daily and only driven hard when we go on trips and I like to step on it. I'm starting the search the forums section to see what I can learn more on what would be best for me at this time.


I'm after a stockish ride since it's our daily and only sees high speeds when I have fun with it on rare occassions. I've considered low miles used OEM stuff, even, as a way to get some solid working struts onto the car since my car sits at about 105K now. I can probably pick up a set of all four struts/springs from a 48K mile car in immaculate condition (Vert as well) for $50 total or I can spend and buy Monroes/Kybs, etc. and probably not be any better off unless for some quirky reason the 48K mile car I am getting parts from was driven hard Lets just say this is the cleanest used Saab I have ever seen and it's not even cleaned up...well, I suppose it's naturally clean as that's how the previous owners obviously treated the car. Too bad the seats are now gone. They were flawless. Roof looks brand new and that's what I'm going after since the person is letting the entire thing go dirt cheap.


Sorry to ramble, but some good news, some more dealing with things news)
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Old 11-16-2009, 06:05 PM   #18
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Balance Shafts

Have you considered the balance shaft system? There are two balance shafts on the intake and exhaust sides of the engine that eliminate engine vibration. The balance shafts are timed to the engine ignition system, so they may be out of time or damaged. Good luck.
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Old 12-25-2009, 04:12 AM   #19
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Have you considered the balance shaft system? There are two balance shafts on the intake and exhaust sides of the engine that eliminate engine vibration. The balance shafts are timed to the engine ignition system, so they may be out of time or damaged. Good luck.
I have not. I've never even read anything about these. Where do I locate them? Thanks a lot for the recommendation. I will see into it once I can figure out where these would be located.
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