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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 10-05-2009, 09:49 AM   #1
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Nick's race car

Nick, quick question - in your youtube vids, what is the loud rat tat tat tat on your drag car when taking off out of the gate?

Awesome car and videos, thanks for posting them up.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:09 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by stevbd View Post
Nick, quick question - in your youtube vids, what is the loud rat tat tat tat on your drag car when taking off out of the gate?

Awesome car and videos, thanks for posting them up.
2-step
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:30 AM   #3
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It's actually antilag not two step



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Old 10-05-2009, 11:18 AM   #4
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I thought it was launch control
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:58 AM   #5
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Rat tat tat tat

I'm thinking it's an atmospheric dump from the waste gate. Daveship's ship was doing that at Neesab's dyno day.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:23 PM   #6
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I'm thinking it's an atmospheric dump from the waste gate. Daveship's ship was doing that at Neesab's dyno day.
Nick's using an internal wastegate. When I'm bouncing off my rev limit in second and the external wastegate is open (atmospheric dump), it makes that type of sound also. Nick's got launch control via Nira.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:45 PM   #7
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I thought it was launch control
yeah antilag/launch control, both are done in a similar manner/sound similar.



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Old 10-05-2009, 02:13 PM   #8
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For those interested:
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Bang-bang (also known as ALS which stands for Anti-Lag System) is an engine management technique that allows to minimize the turbo lag time.

As you might be aware of, turbochargers display what is known as lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. The duration of a turbocharger's lag depends on many factors among which its inertia, airflow efficiency, back pressure, etc. The issue is partly dealt with by fitting a turbo dump valve, which acts each time the driver lifts his foot from the throttle. The dump valve will evacuate the pressurized air coming out of the turbocharger while the inlet manifold is closed thus allowing the turbine not to stall and avoiding possible damage to its bearings. In race cars it is very common to fit oversized turbochargers in order to be able to produce enough boost pressure and assure a sufficient engine output. Big turbochargers display significant amounts of lag due to their increased rotational inertia. In such cases the dump valve is insufficient to allow the turbocharger not to loose too much speed when the driver lifts off. Additionally rally cars are fitted with a turbo restrictor, which is regulated by the FIA. One of the restrictor' effects is to increase lag time. This is why in racing cars, and more specifically in rally cars, where torque and engine availability are critical performance factors, most applications use anti-lag systems.

During lag time the engine is much less responsive and its output well below nominal. To counter the effect of the turbocharger's lag time drivers used to anticipate the engine's reactions by accelerating well before they would have done in a non-turbo car. Others have used a technique, introduced by the German driver Walter Röhrl, known as "left foot braking" where the driver uses his left foot to brake the car while his right foot accelerates to keep the turbocharger in optimal load. Left foot braking is very hard on the brakes which are put into extreme stress but is very efficient in keeping the turbo spinning.
ALS was a simple idea but one that was relatively difficult to implement. Only when electronic engine management systems were advanced enough to allow taking into consideration many more parameters, in real time, than in the past it became possible to use them efficiently in handling ALS. To the best of my knowledge Toyota Team Europe were the first to use it in racing (Toyota's implementation is known as Toyota Combustion Control System while Mitsubishi call the system Post Combustion Control System).
How ALS works

When the driver lifts his foot from the gas pedal the ignition timing is altered with sometimes 40° or more of delay (retard) and the intake air and fuel supply mixture is made richer. The inlet butterfly is kept slightly open or an air injector, bypassing the inlet butterfly, is used to maintain air supply to the engine. This results in air/fuel mixture that keeps getting in the combustion chambers when the driver no longer accelerates. The ignition being severely delayed, the air/fuel mixture reaches the exhaust tubes mostly unburned. When the spark plug fires, the exhaust valve is starting to open due to the ignition delay mentioned above. Additionally, the exhaust temperature being extremely high, the unburned fuel explodes at the contact of the exhaust tubes. Luckily the turbo sits right there and the explosion keeps it turning (otherwise it would slow down since its intake, the exhaust gases, is cut-off). The effect is vastly lower response times with some downsides:

* A quick rise of the turbocharger's temperature (which jumps from ~800°C to the 1100°C+ region) whenever the system is activated
* A huge stress on the exhaust manifold and pipes (mounted on a street car a bang-bang system would destroy the exhaust system within 50-100 km)
* The turbo produces significant boost even at engine idle speeds
* The explosions which occur in the exhaust tubes generate important flames which can, sometimes, be seen at the end of the exhaust tube
* Reduced engine brake

The ALS effect is mostly dependent on the quantity of air allowed into the engine, the more air supplied the more the ALS effect will be noticeable. Consequently ALS systems can be more or less aggressive. A mild ALS will maintain a 0 to 0.3 bar pressure in the inlet manifold when activated whereas, when inactive, the pressure in the inlet manifold with the throttle closed would be in the region of -1 bar (absolute vacuum). Racing ALS versions can maintain a pressure of up to 1.5 bar in the inlet manifold with the throttle closed.
While the systems mounted in Toyota and Mitsubishi racing cars are relatively smooth and noiseless those fitted in Ford and Subaru cars are much more noisy and aggressive.
The bang-bang system owns its name to the loud explosion noises one hears whenever the driver lifts off. Most racing implementations have user selectable anti-lag settings depending on the terrain, usually three settings can be selected by the driver going from mild to very aggressive.

Note that some regional or national European events prohibit the use of ALS systems while more and more WRC events regulate the noise levels allowed by competition cars effectively disabling ALS.

Starting in 2002 new anti-lag techniques, such as Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR), are slowly overtaking the method described above as they are kinder on the engine's mechanical parts.
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Old 10-05-2009, 02:31 PM   #9
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email direct works better..

It is timing pull to build boost on the line, we leave with about 2/3 full boost and holding the rpms just a little below peak torque rpm. Best part is by firing basically with the exh valves open (roughly -10degrees) we do not need to slip the clutch. Activated by a switch in the cabin. There are lots fancier ways to do it but here we are keeping it simple. It is labeled "launch Control" In the aftermarket Nira i3+ ecu.

Also we do not have this function in my street car with T7 ecu it runs about the same 60ft times.
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:34 PM   #10
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well with email this information would only be availble to one person and not the whole community....
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Old 10-05-2009, 05:49 PM   #11
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Thanks

Nice quote on ya DanF.
Good explanation on the similar sounding launch control.
I'm learning more about these cars every time I log on.
Makes me want to build a T5 screamer. Maybe I will.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:04 PM   #12
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Thank you for the info dan.

The last time I spoke with Frank (SQR), he told me that they were fitting up Per Eklunds new car with some crazy ALS and the exhaust manifolds alone cost $10,000.00...just a bit out of my price range.

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Old 10-06-2009, 06:50 AM   #13
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I have never had the guts to look at the egts on my car when staging it like that.. It has tended to blow the jt muffler slowly apart in the slip fitting over on the lateral part next to the gas tank. I think we are going to have to weld it or ditch the mufflers all together.
Before tulsa when we took it for the shakedown run on the old fuel it was making some serious fireballs out the back. I was getting worried something was wrong but when we got fresh e85 it it went away.
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:05 AM   #14
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You can "pop" it for a while like that, but 1000+C you will see after some while if you keep on it.
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:02 PM   #15
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I'm sure this is posted somewhere (prob right on GS), but what turbo are you using with your ALS setup? What's the highest egt's in can handle? I know my tuner's garage has been using the turbo from the evo 6 tommi maikinen edition. Apparently it handles egt's up to 2200F and it cost him about 900 bucks i thinks.
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:03 AM   #16
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https://www.saablink.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42448

antilag in car and outside car
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:04 AM   #17
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We are running a Gt3071 with the smallest .64 exh housing. On E85 the egt stays pretty low under power so I am not too worried about it. (Couple times I have been mildly concerned when someone was messing with us on the tree.) Best part about that little guy is two pops and we are to launch boost! The gt30 is going back on my Viggen, the 2871 gets a new home on my other 2.0 and drag car gets a "big snail" Hand me downs are nice. Only have to save for one turbo.
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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