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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 12-14-2011, 05:30 PM   #441
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Exact cars with exact hw always make way different numbers. I have over 10 dynos from cars at sea-level and at elvation that all show the same results, almost identical, if were so inflated, it would show up somewhere, not just keep being exactly the same When you keep adding up one and one and you keep getting two, you might consider the answer just might be two

Here is another example stg 5 jsp tune and hw on ng900 at elevation, ng900 at sea-level with the exact same hw and tune.

John
So here you have one dyno which is UNCORRECTED and one using an SAE Correction factor. Smoothing is different too which can make a significant difference in numbers especially if the car is pulling timing due to knock.

You're not gaining ground here John. The problem is you are constantly trying to add 1 and 1 and get 2.5 JUST because you REALLY want it to be 2.5.

D-

Last edited by David in Tallahassee; 12-14-2011 at 05:41 PM. Reason: Just needed to complete a statement
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Old 12-14-2011, 05:39 PM   #442
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And another one, same tune, my stg 4 b235r at sea-level at soc and the dynojet at 6000', I guess its just all coincedence ?

John
These two are close. Even though the smoothing is different, at least the CF is the same.

I'm sorry John but ever since you admitted that your "favorite test" stretch was a downhill slope and that you recorded your best (and HIGHLY advertised) 60-90 time on a "cold night" on that stretch I must admit I have a hard time categorically accepting the data you present.

The truth is that Mike is right; the only really good way to put the 19T argument to rest would be for me to install a 19T on my car and tune it to the max and see what it puts down. Since the odds of me going through all of that to sell a few more T28s next year are EXTREMELY slim, you are safe...for the moment.

D-
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:31 AM   #443
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On fuel pressure...
If you are going to add air, you have to add fuel. That's all I did. My point is that the fuel MAPs have not been touched. All that has been done is additional fuel pressure.


thats a tune. adding fuel pressure changes amount of fuel so its a tune. same thing you would do in the tune but software. you did a hard tune

On race fuel adding horsepower...
If you believe that race fuel adds horsepower, go dyno a stock car with pump then add race fuel and spin the rollers again. Unless the car was pulling timing or boost because of knock, the numbers won't change one iota. The turbo won't spool any faster and the power won't last any longer. Not sure where you got that.

just saying ive been in cars that run flex fuel and they make more power with e85 over pump gas. stock tune.

and your turbo spools faster because your motor is making more power without boost. more power = more exhaust flow which

On the Mitsu argument...
My contention from the beginning has been that a standard 19T 6CM will not outflow the T28. It seems we agree on that now. Unfortunately you argue as if I said no Mitsu turbo could outflow it. A 19T 6CM WITH a clip MIGHT have a chance. What if we start clipping and messing around with the T28? I stand by my position: A standard 19T with a 6CM will not outflow a T28. As a matter of fact, the "clip" wouldn't be enough for the 19T either. It would take a 7CM housing.

i thought you were saying the 19t 6cm in general. that turbo you have isnt stock either its modded. so im comparing modded td04 to t25 or 19t vs t28. was how i was looking at it. tdo4 is alot better on paper and in real life.

On JZW...
Sadly it also means same altitude and correction factor problems.

D-
and just because yours was dyno'd on a non sae corrected dyno doesnt mean the owner of dyno didt make it read higher. i see this all the time


ad the best way like JZW said was same tune, same car, same dyno. different turbo only difference.

and we will have a clear answer. you can say all day your turbo is better and i can say the 19t is better. and if we have no proof the td04 remains better because of the paper results
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Old 12-15-2011, 04:49 AM   #444
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and just because yours was dyno'd on a non sae corrected dyno doesnt mean the owner of dyno didt make it read higher. i see this all the time


ad the best way like JZW said was same tune, same car, same dyno. different turbo only difference.

and we will have a clear answer. you can say all day your turbo is better and i can say the 19t is better. and if we have no proof the td04 remains better because of the paper results
I hear what you are saying I just disagree. However, I agree on one point very firmly; same car - turbo only difference - testing is the only final word.

However, I must rebut the 19T being "better on paper". This was the original broad statement upon which I entered the debate. The Mitsu TD04 19T 6CM is NOT "better" on paper. Yes the compressor wheel is about 3% larger than the T28 but the 6CM hot side is smaller by roughly 10%. That makes for a less balanced turbo than the 28.

So you have a cold side wheel that in a perfect "paper" world is capable of out flowing the T28 by a whopping 3% but you have a 10% tighter hot side which will make it nearly impossible to realize those 3 percentage points. Getting a 19T 6CM to outflow the Big 28 on paper, or in the real world would be dang near impossible, IMO...and I'll just leave it at that. Actually, that was my original point. I still say that's one of the reasons you don't see Maptun using the 19T for power over 320 crank and you do have them using basically the ball bearing variant of the T28 for 355 crank.

Bottom line, I have learned not to debate beyond a reasonable point and I have reached that point. The information is out there. People just have to draw their own conclusions. I know I don't have time to argue about things and I'm sure you don't nor does John.

I have gone 15 rounds for years with several folks here on this board and on SC about what I think works and what they say won't work. Reality: it all works and we choose our combinations based on our own conclusions drawn from the understood data available.

D-
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Old 12-15-2011, 09:31 AM   #445
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That is an interesting point, we were talking with Nick from Mac Auto Sport and he is well respected and in the tuning community and runs the dyno jet we have been using for years. From what he says, you cannot adjust the dyno jet dyno calibration, it has a fail-safe now and it uses the weather station to give you the sae CF, if you try to raise the elevation, it will not allow it and will throw an error code. It is possible to raise the numbers with a superflow or mustang dyno, different system. His main point is many people dyno with dyno jet dynos all over the county and its one of the best ways to get a good idea of what is going on.

Dave, Uncorrected at sea-level and sae is often only off by a few hp. I just posted all the new 93SS dyno information from sea-level and Denver on SC and people were saying the same thing, the uncorrected numbers and sae numbers were different by 2-3bhp, no real difference there.

The Smoothing also makes a very small difference in most cases, maybe 1-2bhp from what I see. I have quite a few more comparisons now, the gt3071 making within 7whp and the list goes on, but as you said, no need to keep beating a dead horse. I have lots of data to support that in most cases the Sae dynojet numbers are very close to sea level numbers with most saabs and in the case of the T8 cars, they are showing to dyno about 15-20bhp less than at sea-level, those little turbos just will not make the boost at elevation.

I have had multiple guys get T8 tunes in Denver, they make about 16psi and when they get to sea-level, they boost 20-22psi, so quite a big difference. Jeff made 310bhp on E85 stg 4 in Denver, Lawrence with same make model, year and hw and tune made 327bhp on the same tune at sea-level.

Read the information, make your own conclusions

John
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:26 PM   #446
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i had a friend named jesse who had a 97 ng900 2.0 with a t28, that made over 300whp, with the clutch slipping and power not making it to the ground,, with more power in the wait..

also, i think a t28 makes more sence in financially, a tdo4 stock is still worth 250-350 to anybody as it sits in a known working state. a t25 is basically worthless, and so having it built cost a lot less. Even if you have a car that came with a tdo4 stock, your still loosing the money you would make by not selling it....

lastly, to continue beating a dead horse,, peak dyno numbers, espially when dealing with higher hp cars depened quite a bit on how well your head is cleaned, rings are seated, and potentially even how nice of shape your accessories are in, so they wont be dragging power down

its very tuff to look at the overall running state of a car over the interweb, nevermind compare peak dyno numbers. and hope that every car is in the same mechanical shape.
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:38 PM   #447
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i had a friend named jesse who had a 97 ng900 2.0 with a t28, that made over 300whp, with the clutch slipping and power not making it to the ground,, with more power in the wait..

also, i think a t28 makes more sence in financially, a tdo4 stock is still worth 250-350 to anybody as it sits in a known working state. a t25 is basically worthless, and so having it built cost a lot less. Even if you have a car that came with a tdo4 stock, your still loosing the money you would make by not selling it....

lastly, to continue beating a dead horse,, peak dyno numbers, espially when dealing with higher hp cars depened quite a bit on how well your head is cleaned, rings are seated, and potentially even how nice of shape your accessories are in, so they wont be dragging power down

its very tuff to look at the overall running state of a car over the interweb, nevermind compare peak dyno numbers. and hope that every car is in the same mechanical shape.
ALL very valid points Mike. I agree totally.

D-
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:49 PM   #448
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I believe power numbers aside that a td04 is a better investment then a t25 as you said mike they are worthless. I have seen countless cars with 150+ miles on them with a td04 most t25 are long dead by 100k. In 4a years working on Saab's I've replaced three td04 and I can't even count how many t25's. That's one reason I lime the td04 though I don't know for sure what Turbo is most capable power wise.
Seems each side to this has a good argument. I mean as to what mike d says most 19t setups are running 300+ to the wheels and it seems to me that if your running the Turbo where its safe then both turbos run about the same power output.. I know as david has said his car is at its limits with its hardware.

I'm not trying to say which is better but from everything I have read generally speaking they both run around the same peak power when on a modest tune. Which Turbo Can make more area under the curve I don't think has been proven for sure. But it does seem as though Davids car has the best dyno graph out of the two with the most peak.
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:51 PM   #449
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Always good to have a thread like this once in a while, gets the old juices flowing, but I do believe you guys should stop mucking up this guys thread.
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Old 12-15-2011, 01:56 PM   #450
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Always good to have a thread like this once in a while, gets the old juices flowing, but I do believe you guys should stop mucking up this guys thread.
Yeah, you're right about that.

My apologies.

D-
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Old 12-15-2011, 02:39 PM   #451
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Yeah wow I got caught up in the convo that I completely forgot this was a build thread. Even the it says it is. Sorry to the OP
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:56 AM   #452
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Always good to have a thread like this once in a while, gets the old juices flowing, but I do believe you guys should stop mucking up this guys thread.
Yeah sorry, I think it was me that started it

Page 24 will be alot better
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:15 AM   #453
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Yeah, you're right about that.

My apologies.

D-
this is the best thread on ng900 section. packed with info from op and others


i think you have to search the td04 hybrids. i see them make 360bhp on pump gas. uk saabs has great info on these.

your going off ancient data where t28 is better than td04 housing not anymore maybe 2008 not 2011. people swap internals from td05 housing into td04 making a td04 flow damn close to td05. which is better than the .49a/r t28. the 6cm stock unmodded is around .42a/r if you clip it you can get .49a/r+ off td04 6cm. the 7cm is 50a/r and its still td04. clipped wheel with 7cm housig and youll have even more exhaust flow which is more hp at the cost of shifting power up in rpm.

i can agree the t25/t28 has a bigger a/r than a unmoded tdo4 5cm and 6cm but not the 7cm or clipped 6cm. but im comparing the best td04 to the best t28 so clipping and other things are involved.

and im sure the compressor wheels on mhi are lighter than t25/28 and they are bigger. not positive tho
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:15 AM   #454
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this is the best thread on ng900 section. packed with info from op and others


i think you have to search the td04 hybrids. i see them make 360bhp on pump gas. uk saabs has great info on these.

your going off ancient data where t28 is better than td04 housing not anymore maybe 2008 not 2011. people swap internals from td05 housing into td04 making a td04 flow damn close to td05. which is better than the .49a/r t28. the 6cm stock unmodded is around .42a/r if you clip it you can get .49a/r+ off td04 6cm. the 7cm is 50a/r and its still td04. clipped wheel with 7cm housig and youll have even more exhaust flow which is more hp at the cost of shifting power up in rpm.

i can agree the t25/t28 has a bigger a/r than a unmoded tdo4 5cm and 6cm but not the 7cm or clipped 6cm. but im comparing the best td04 to the best t28 so clipping and other things are involved.

and im sure the compressor wheels on mhi are lighter than t25/28 and they are bigger. not positive tho
To be fair, I have never contended that NO TD04 framed turbo could outflow the T28. Just that the typical SAAB TD04 19t with a 6CM housing couldn't. As I said before, I stand by that.

As far as taking a TD04 to the max like you are suggesting, the cost becomes comparable to Garrett GT series turbos so it's seems a moot point to me.

D-
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:57 PM   #455
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sequential shifter FTW

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Ending the brakes/chassis job (except the ReAxs retrofit), I am starting the interior: ...
Also, I will roll the dices and try to modify the gears shifter from the H pattern to sequential: push the lever straight forward clank-clank-clank: 1-2-3, pull it to downshift.
Feel free to chime in on this
One step closer in developing a shifter that converts the H-pattern to sequential
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:30 PM   #456
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Hooray, he is back !

I like your shifter
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Old 03-02-2012, 09:29 AM   #457
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seq shifter kit

thought to post a preview of the seq shifter kit...all, including display for the current gear
I am quite anxious...
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:39 PM   #458
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Do you have a working shifter in the car? I'd like to see a video if you have one.


Oh yeah, will be available for purchase???
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:55 PM   #459
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some brakes

more on them later....
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:52 PM   #460
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ta-daaaa!

ready and installed on the car! yupppy
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