Performance report Maptun stage 3 - Page 3 - The Saab Link Forums

Go Back   The Saab Link Forums > Saab NG900 '94-'98 and 9-3 '99-'02 Forum > Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3

Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

SaabLink.net is the premier Saab Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05-20-2005, 08:16 AM   #41
Flirting With TSL Addiction
 
Aerolike9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Frederick,MD,USA
Posts: 432
Send a message via AIM to Aerolike9 Send a message via MSN to Aerolike9
i did only 148 in my 99 9-3.. didnt have too much work done to it either
__________________
Your signature image is too large
Alec
1988 Saab 900-Sold
1999 Saab 9-3-SOLD
1998 Saab 9000CSE-Sold
2001 Saab 9-3 Viggen Vert- Sold
Saab 9-5
Aerolike9 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-20-2005, 08:57 AM   #42
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Remember also that you wont have the "stage III" power for very long. The ECU is forced to pull back timing during long WOT accelerations and basically you dont any more power than a stock viggen if you hava a B235R or B205R engine. For the T25/GT17 cars I dont even want to know what happens...
As always there are 300hp car and 300hp cars with the difference than one of them does move and the other one is just a dynoqueen. Stage I-III do fall in the later on of them.
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-20-2005, 10:37 AM   #43
Avid TSL User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 147
How can you say Stage 1-3 cars are dyno queens? That makes no sense. A dyno queen is a turbo car whose dyno curve mimics the hp curve. My car is equivalent to a Stage 3 and I have a torque curve that is nice and flat, therefore useable for the entire rev range.
burre is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-20-2005, 11:57 PM   #44
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by burre
How can you say Stage 1-3 cars are dyno queens? That makes no sense. A dyno queen is a turbo car whose dyno curve mimics the hp curve. My car is equivalent to a Stage 3 and I have a torque curve that is nice and flat, therefore useable for the entire rev range.
I used the word dynoqueen in this context with the meaning "satge I-III engine is only capable of providing the results for a short period of time, like for instace during a short dyno run", not the shape of the curve.
You can always test this your self. Find a stock viggen and race it from 100km/h to 200km/h using 3rd and 4th gear and see what the deviation between a stage I-III and a stock viggen is.
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2005, 02:43 AM   #45
Avid TSL User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 147
Whatever, all I know is that my car is indeed faster than a stock Viggen and I really don't see how it can be classified as a dyno queen. My car has higher hp than a Viggen and matches a Viggen's torque, so when I have raced either those or 9000 Aeros, the race stays close. In the end though, I have just enough extra upper rpm hp to pull away a bit. I also think my 1/4 mile times back up the fact my car is quicker than a stock Viggen. [email protected] was my quickest and most runs were around 14.7 to 14.8, and I believe stock Viggens run about 15.0. Also, you need to remeber, your trying to compare a 2.3 to a 2.0, of course the 2.3 will be stronger with similar mods.
burre is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2005, 05:22 AM   #46
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
mg_td's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Yarmouth, ME / Troy, NY
Posts: 1,881
Send a message via AIM to mg_td
may i also add that there is a weigh difference between the two, c&d reported the 99 9-3 s 5 door as weighing 3040 and the viggen as 3220 IIRC
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

238.8 whp 272.1 wtq
mg_td is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2005, 09:06 AM   #47
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by burre
Whatever, all I know is that my car is indeed faster than a stock Viggen and I really don't see how it can be classified as a dyno queen. My car has higher hp than a Viggen and matches a Viggen's torque, so when I have raced either those or 9000 Aeros, the race stays close. In the end though, I have just enough extra upper rpm hp to pull away a bit. I also think my 1/4 mile times back up the fact my car is quicker than a stock Viggen. [email protected] was my quickest and most runs were around 14.7 to 14.8, and I believe stock Viggens run about 15.0. Also, you need to remeber, your trying to compare a 2.3 to a 2.0, of course the 2.3 will be stronger with similar mods.
If you want to compare similar vehicles BHP based on quarter mile runs, use trap speed as an indicator. It will give far more accurate results than the elapsed time. Unlike elapsed time trap isn't that dependant on how you launch etc.

For the record a healty std viggen will trap 97mph on a quarter mile. This particular time is Adrians and run in LARC ambient 90F and altitude 3000ft. As mentioned look into the weight difference as well.

Could you be more specific about the races, what was interval and how where starts done? And what do mean by a bit, 3ft maybe?

What difference does it make if the car is 2.0 or 2.3 when you're running 100km/h to 200km/h, you're using rpms from 4000 and up. The better low and mid range torque wont come into play in this interval.

Of course if choose interval differently you will see more deviation, like 100-200km/h in fifth. A modified viggen compared over stock will benefit from the better low end torque, but there is no use to compare interval like this.
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2005, 11:01 AM   #48
Avid TSL User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 147
All the playing around with the 9000 Aeros was done at speeds ranging from 90 mph all the way to 155 mph. It was done during the Saabscene Germany trip in September of 2003. And yes, a little bit is not much. I would pull maybe a car length on them when running from say 100 mph up to 150 mph. You also mention that driving above 4000 rpm won't let the better low and midrange be shown. When was the last time you raced somebody and not gone above 4000 rpm?

I have never raced side by side with a Viggen, but I can tell you after I drove my car and Philip HS's Viggen back to back the difference was felt by both he and I. This was done while his had an Abbott ECU. They felt similar in the midrange, but mine felt more rev happy and stronger in the top end. Now that he has his Hirsch mapping and all the engine work, his is a clearly stronger motor.

Anyways, as far as what got this started, what is your definition of a dyno queen?

Mine is and that of everyone I talk to is: A car whose engine is tuned to put out big horsepower numbers on the dyno regardless of what the result is as far as driveability is concerned. Those are cars, especially turbocharged ones, that don't build any boost whatsoever in the low and midrange for the sake of high rpm madness. I have yet to see a dyno chart of any Saab on this forum or any other that would make me think dyno queen. For instance, my car has over 330 Nm from about 2300 rpm all the way to about 5400 rpm. I think all of the dyno charts for quality tuned ECUs I have seen for Saabs look fairly similar.

So please, what is your definition of a dyno queen?
burre is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2005, 12:12 PM   #49
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by burre
All the playing around with the 9000 Aeros was done at speeds ranging from 90 mph all the way to 155 mph. It was done during the Saabscene Germany trip in September of 2003. And yes, a little bit is not much. I would pull maybe a car length on them when running from say 100 mph up to 150 mph. You also mention that driving above 4000 rpm won't let the better low and midrange be shown. When was the last time you raced somebody and not gone above 4000 rpm?

I have never raced side by side with a Viggen, but I can tell you after I drove my car and Philip HS's Viggen back to back the difference was felt by both he and I. This was done while his had an Abbott ECU. They felt similar in the midrange, but mine felt more rev happy and stronger in the top end. Now that he has his Hirsch mapping and all the engine work, his is a clearly stronger motor.

Anyways, as far as what got this started, what is your definition of a dyno queen?

Mine is and that of everyone I talk to is: A car whose engine is tuned to put out big horsepower numbers on the dyno regardless of what the result is as far as driveability is concerned. Those are cars, especially turbocharged ones, that don't build any boost whatsoever in the low and midrange for the sake of high rpm madness. I have yet to see a dyno chart of any Saab on this forum or any other that would make me think dyno queen. For instance, my car has over 330 Nm from about 2300 rpm all the way to about 5400 rpm. I think all of the dyno charts for quality tuned ECUs I have seen for Saabs look fairly similar.

So please, what is your definition of a dyno queen?
ooh, I meat that when you race 100km/h-200km/h you dont go below 4000rpm.
Maybe I was uncler in my last post...

"Dynoqueen"
My deffenitoin is a car what is capable of producing a fair amount of hp on the rollers but fails to do the same on the road. For instace these stage I-III cars do put down near 300hp figures in a dyno, but they do not move any faster than a 230hp car once put to a test on the road. Oh yes, if you choose the studied interval wisely you will see difference, but a normal race 100-200km/h reviels the truth. There is only a minor differnce in elapsed distance, if any.
Ask around tuners for their oppinion what is a stage III cars output in fourth gear if there is a 3rd gear run on the bottom.

Here is one teaser
http://viggen93.mine.nu/viggen/viggens.wmv
about 100-220km/h
Car you see in the picture is a std viggen. Car with the camera stage III viggen.
Both cars MY99 viggens, so only differency in weight and such is the man with the camera. This is just one exampel of real life performance of these "dynoqueens". Ok, it would be easy to say that the tuned car is not working properly, but this is not the case. We have tested half a dozen cars this way and result is the same. I guess all the tuned cars here are faulty to begin with

Reality strikes, there isn't much left over capasity to be used on the TD04-15 compared to a std viggen. A healthy std viggen runs about 200g/s of airmass at high rpm while tuned cars get a 10% at the most. Of course you can play around with A/F and timing to get better dyno results, but to covert that into real life performance on the road is an another story, it wont happen

Race a std viggen and see for your self what the difference is.

Ps. about Philips car and Abbott, his car was dynoed to +5hp more than stock with that ECU Also, a strong low end does give the impression that a car is much faster than what it really is in real life.
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2005, 11:13 PM   #50
Avid TSL User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 147
Well, your definition of dyno queen is completely against with mine and that of everyone else I know.

You need to remember all of us stage I-III guys do not claim to have 300 hp. Try more like around 260-270 hp. When you really look at the difference to a stock Viggen, you're only looking at about what, 12 percent or so? That kind of power difference will not show very much. That kind of power advantage will only show by a car length after quite a long time. Look at F1, the cars with power advantage of 50 hp only gain a few car lengths even on longer straights.

But if you look at the perfromance difference I got over stock, it is much larger and very real. When I lived in Germany I had a wonderful testing ground called the autobahn. There was a very nice and very uphill section that would separate the strong cars from the weak. It was a little over a mile from bottom to top. From the entrance at the bottom at about 60 mph, I could, with my stock 185 hp, reach about 120 mph before I had to slow down for the speed limited zone at the top. After all of my mods, that speed increased to 132 mph. That is a real and credible power difference that made all the mods worth doing. What are you looking for, something that claims 300 hp but flat out walks away from a Viggen? Your perception of real performance is warped. And when it comes down to it, what is the performance difference between a stock Viggen and a Stage 3 Viggen? I bet it isn't very far off the performance increase all of us 2.0 liter guys get.

You are speaking like you think just because you have a Viggen the rest of us shouldn't waste our time tuning. You are acting like an eliteist. And if you ask me, you are insulting everyone here that has their Saab tuned, especially the 2.0s, anywhere in the Stage I-III range. A Viggen's engine is larger than the rest of us and better be faster, otherwise I think there would be alot of embarrased Viggen owners out there.

And you don't need to inform me about Philip's car. We met up because after he got the Abbott ECU he was very suspicious about the power it gave. We drove each other's car to feel the performance difference. We had a consensus that his had better midrange still but was very lacking in the top end compared to what we thought it should have. He also agreed, aat the time that my car felt stronger in the upper rpms. So therefore, at the time, both to me and him, my car felt faster than his what turned out to be, essentially stock Viggen.
burre is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2005, 11:16 PM   #51
Avid TSL User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 147
By the way, Bollman, I apologise for letting the thread get hijacked. I think you have done the right thing modding your car so far and should have fun playing with it and experimenting with those top speeds.
burre is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2005, 12:44 AM   #52
Administrator
SAAB Road Master
 
bollman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 302
Send a message via ICQ to bollman Send a message via AIM to bollman
Haha, I haven´t read much here, but now I see
Never mind, since the MapTun ECU is probably going and more mods are coming. I doubt that I will have the opportunity to really test the top speed beforehand.
bollman is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2005, 10:05 AM   #53
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by burre
Well, your definition of dyno queen is completely against with mine and that of everyone else I know.
I dont think the term has one single definition and it may be understud differently...but you see my definition for it above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by burre
You need to remember all of us stage I-III guys do not claim to have 300 hp. Try more like around 260-270 hp. When you really look at the difference to a stock Viggen, you're only looking at about what, 12 percent or so? That kind of power difference will not show very much. That kind of power advantage will only show by a car length after quite a long time. Look at F1, the cars with power advantage of 50 hp only gain a few car lengths even on longer straights.
Is the above a common approach to how these stage I-III cars perform on the road when compared to each other? Usually you run into "day draming" type stories how fast this and this is and how much top speed this and this can pull etc.
How many percent is 50hp difference in F1 motors, like it has anything to do with this matter anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burre
But if you look at the perfromance difference I got over stock, it is much larger and very real. When I lived in Germany I had a wonderful testing ground called the autobahn. There was a very nice and very uphill section that would separate the strong cars from the weak. It was a little over a mile from bottom to top. From the entrance at the bottom at about 60 mph, I could, with my stock 185 hp, reach about 120 mph before I had to slow down for the speed limited zone at the top. After all of my mods, that speed increased to 132 mph. That is a real and credible power difference that made all the mods worth doing. What are you looking for, something that claims 300 hp but flat out walks away from a Viggen? Your perception of real performance is warped. And when it comes down to it, what is the performance difference between a stock Viggen and a Stage 3 Viggen? I bet it isn't very far off the performance increase all of us 2.0 liter guys get.
Was I ever talking about what the difference in performace is with LPT type cars in my previous posts? I think you have drawn some wrong conclusions among the way. I used a std viggen as a bencmark...
And for the question about viggens, see the video. One car is std and the other is stage III tuned by company X. And yes the performance of a stage III B205R is as good or as "worse" as a stage III viggen. Both cars share the same charger with same limitations. As for always the car can only be so strong as its weakest link, in this case the tomato sized charger.

Generally speaking about real performance, what could be more accurate than running two cars side by side? I think it does give a far more accurate results than any butt dyno or uphill test or what ever you have made up during this converstation. Please dont pull peas in your nose, but I dont see what is wrong with my point of view to real life performace when I'm measuring it while you choose to measure something that is related to it. For instance take two cars that will do 0-60mph in 8s, does the given figure give a clear aswer to what the real life performance of these cars are compared to one and another?
The answer is no, we do not measure (or at least I dont) speed vs time on the road, I think we are more interested in travelled distance under a given period of time, which equal to "real life perfromance" in my understanding. This is the exact same as running cars side by side, you're looking for max travel nothing else. And what comes to the two cars above, the deviation measure in ft can be large evengh though the 0-60mph time is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burre
You are speaking like you think just because you have a Viggen the rest of us shouldn't waste our time tuning. You are acting like an eliteist. And if you ask me, you are insulting everyone here that has their Saab tuned, especially the 2.0s, anywhere in the Stage I-III range. A Viggen's engine is larger than the rest of us and better be faster, otherwise I think there would be alot of embarrased Viggen owners out there.
Where did you come up with this? Read back thorugh my previous posts and try at least to find the "red line" this time through.

Even though I own a viggen does not make any difference, it is a dynoqueen just like all the other minor HW tuned saabs on this planet at this moment.
And what comes to the viggens engines larger displacement, see what difference it makes in the turbin, when you're running too small of a turbo to its max in high rpm compared to a 2.0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by burre
And you don't need to inform me about Philip's car. We met up because after he got the Abbott ECU he was very suspicious about the power it gave. We drove each other's car to feel the performance difference. We had a consensus that his had better midrange still but was very lacking in the top end compared to what we thought it should have. He also agreed, aat the time that my car felt stronger in the upper rpms. So therefore, at the time, both to me and him, my car felt faster than his what turned out to be, essentially stock Viggen.
Yes, I know the whole story also, but I dont think this was clear to rest of the readers on this board.
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2005, 10:58 AM   #54
Avid TSL User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 147
I am done trying to deal with you on this. I see you are just as thick headed as Adrian.
burre is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2005, 11:02 AM   #55
Elder
 
stromer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Falmouth, Maine
Posts: 5,988
Send a message via AIM to stromer
why don't you guys just race?

(Comic releif for all )
stromer is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2005, 11:28 AM   #56
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by burre
I am done trying to deal with you on this. I see you are just as thick headed as Adrian.
Yes I might have a thick head, but I also have eyes that see things how they apper in real life with out "fuzzy" lenses.
I think there are far to few people on these boards, who have actually studied this whole issue more closely. These are just my findinds and why should they be barried 6ft deep?
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2005, 11:37 AM   #57
Elder
 
stromer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Falmouth, Maine
Posts: 5,988
Send a message via AIM to stromer
I've been trying to follow along, and I soppose I may as well throw this qustion out. It seems that the debate is mostly over how the X hp increase translates onto the read road? So to say that your car has X over another car, doesn't neccesarily make it any fast, right? I meam you add an exhaust and intake. Sure maybe you are getting 10 hp more, but does this really make your car faster?

And I think Vigge, you're saying that because the Viggen is tuned so well by the engineers, that it is definatly real world power. In that all of its power will translate into results on the roadway.

And so to compare this to a Stage III whatever that has higher horsepower may not be clear as to which car is faster without actual testing.

But even the testing gets fishy, as pointed out by E.T. vs. Trap speed. I do agree that the trap speed is probably the best indication. The biggest problem being that people do not take their cars to tracks nearly as often as they take them to dynos. I recognize this, and I plan to take my car to a 1/4 mile once I get significant mods done. But alas, I am guilty of this trend also, as I am dynoing in about two weeks.

I do want to argue that I put tremendous credit in the hands of our tuners out there. They may not be as good as the Saab techs (that tuned the Viggen afterall) but they are certainly on the ball. I feel that if I am buying an ecu that there is definatly some R&D behind it. And this does show.

When you have all hardware with no software, you most definatly have a dynoqueen. But when you pair that hardware with software specifically tuned for the car and its mods, you (should) definatly have a road car. And I think this is true.
stromer is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2005, 12:43 PM   #58
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
The following is just my personal oppinions and I appoligise in advance if my writing isults follow saabers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromer
I've been trying to follow along, and I soppose I may as well throw this qustion out. It seems that the debate is mostly over how the X hp increase translates onto the read road? So to say that your car has X over another car, doesn't neccesarily make it any fast, right? I meam you add an exhaust and intake. Sure maybe you are getting 10 hp more, but does this really make your car faster?
First guestion that should be asked what is the installed part saffect to the power curve in general. How much RMS was gained, or is the given value just some miserable peak in the curve. Adding 10hp to a 200hp car wont give you any results over the non modified car if for instance the 100-200km/h is used for bencmarking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromer
And I think Vigge, you're saying that because the Viggen is tuned so well by the engineers, that it is definatly real world power. In that all of its power will translate into results on the roadway.
Basically what I mean is the fact that there isn't hardly any left over capasity in the TD04-15T to be used in the B235R for tuning. This aplies only for the higher rpm region, in the low end there is plenty of flow to play with. So one can get more low end torque, which is great. Low end torque does not equal to better "race performace" since the engine is always above ~4000rpm while accelerating trough the gears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromer
And so to compare this to a Stage III whatever that has higher horsepower may not be clear as to which car is faster without actual testing.
It all depends on what we compare and what we compare it to. Just by looking at the peak hp figures given out by tuners as advertisement material doesnt get us far. Also the question that should be asked is "how long do I have this power or do I get it at all due to ambient temp, bad gas etc."
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromer
I do want to argue that I put tremendous credit in the hands of our tuners out there. They may not be as good as the Saab techs (that tuned the Viggen afterall) but they are certainly on the ball. I feel that if I am buying an ecu that there is definatly some R&D behind it. And this does show.
Tuners can do their job, but we need to rember one simple fact. How much money are we willing to pay for tuning? We all want it cheap and the business is built around this dilerma. There isnt really anything wrong with this, since only few shops are promising much much more than what they can give, there are just some pieces that are missing.

I had an interesting talk with one of the leading tuners about this issue and after some debate I was told that their cars are mainly built so that one can do a 100-150km/h acceleration with the given bhp, but if the acceleration is then contenued in the next gear the limitations from the "underrated" HW lead to the fact that timing will be reduced and the output of the engine is near stock. (we are talking about B235R here)

One interesting way to look into this matter is to take the T25 turbo as a example to a racing shop who builds forced induction cars for racing and ask for their honest oppinion for what hp level is that unit good for.

Which of the following 300hp kit does sound more attractive to a common saaber how is looking for a tuning kit for his car.

SW+turbo back exhaust+kat

or

SW+exhaust+kat+exhaust manifold+turbo+IC+injectors+fuel pump+Intake pipe

I would bet the first one of these is the natural choice when comparing bang for buck ration. But as always there are 300hp cars and 300hp cars...

just my 0.02
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2005, 12:57 PM   #59
Elder
 
stromer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Falmouth, Maine
Posts: 5,988
Send a message via AIM to stromer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge
I had an interesting talk with one of the leading tuners about this issue and after some debate I was told that their cars are mainly built so that one can do a 100-150km/h acceleration with the given bhp, but if the acceleration is then contenued in the next gear the limitations from the "underrated" HW lead to the fact that timing will be reduced and the output of the engine is near stock. (we are talking about B235R here)
This thought isn't very settling. Sure we probably won't be going out and doing repeated runs, but still. Now you're saying underrated HW. What do you mean by this? Do you mean that the hardware is going to be limiting the SW? Or that the SW can't keep up with the HW?

Interesting about the Viggen turbo. I have a t25 right now, and I always thought that the td04 would be just fine for me for an upgrade. I have considered doing the 6cm2 from the 9000 Aero, and even maybe a 18t wheel from a Volvo turbo, but these aren't likely. To hear from somebody who thinks that the td04 is weak is humbling. I am sure you are right, but its just at a whole different level.

Its interesting that at first you said that the 10 hp wouldn't make much difference. As I tanslate from kmh to mph, I get 62 to...about 120mph? Maybe 10 hp wouldn't be felt, but at what point would it make a noticeable difference? I guess then the defininition of noticeable comes into play. Very confusing. But for me when I installed my mbc in my car, it felt worlds faster in all parts of the rev scheme. This likely added something in the neighborhood of 15-20 hp (7 psi to 15). So I felt this. Now I did not race against a stock car, but I would be very surprised if I did not have the advantage.

I know that as rpms increse, as does speed, as does total hp, these differences are less and less noticeable. Maybe it is just my amateur type thinking that says that adding 20 hp to a 185 hp car will make a noticeable difference across the rev range at all speeds. But I soppose when this same 20 hp increase is applied to a car with already 250+ hp at high rpms and veryhigh speed, with a limiting turbo, this difference would be less noticeable.

Is this what the debate is all about? Cause then I guess I'd have to agree with whoever stated this first...I forget....
stromer is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-22-2005, 10:22 PM   #60
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromer
This thought isn't very settling. Sure we probably won't be going out and doing repeated runs, but still. Now you're saying underrated HW. What do you mean by this? Do you mean that the hardware is going to be limiting the SW? Or that the SW can't keep up with the HW?
The near std HW cant cope too long with the generatd heat load at the power levels. The SW does protect the engine from blowing to pieces and that it why you see drop in output. See above for a more "stabile" 300hp spec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromer
Interesting about the Viggen turbo. I have a t25 right now, and I always thought that the td04 would be just fine for me for an upgrade. I have considered doing the 6cm2 from the 9000 Aero, and even maybe a 18t wheel from a Volvo turbo, but these aren't likely. To hear from somebody who thinks that the td04 is weak is humbling. I am sure you are right, but its just at a whole different level.
It all depends on what you're going to use the turbo for and you should never let a child do a mens work. In other words the selection of charger should be made in a way that it will suit your needs. To small wont work nor will a ower sized one.
As stated for the viggen turbo its top end sucs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromer
Its interesting that at first you said that the 10 hp wouldn't make much difference. As I tanslate from kmh to mph, I get 62 to...about 120mph? Maybe 10 hp wouldn't be felt, but at what point would it make a noticeable difference? I guess then the defininition of noticeable comes into play. Very confusing. But for me when I installed my mbc in my car, it felt worlds faster in all parts of the rev scheme. This likely added something in the neighborhood of 15-20 hp (7 psi to 15). So I felt this. Now I did not race against a stock car, but I would be very surprised if I did not have the advantage.
What makes a noticeable difference? It all depens how we justify that term.
Simple example car 1 that has xhp does 100-200km/h in 13s. Car 2 is more powerfull over the upper rpm region and does 100-200 in 12.5. Hypothetically speaking lets assume that the better acceleration it evenly spread through out the entire acceleration. From this we get the following results
half way trough the acceleration there is a deviation of 3m and 8m when the faster car reaches 200km/h.
To drop your 100-200 time from 13 to 12.5 does require a "bit"more grunt than 10hp.
A difference this small will easily be eaten up if the less powerfull car hits the throttle first, or by shifting.

Remember also that I'm mainly talking about the B235R tuning and its performance difference compared to std. To throw in a MBC to you car is a different story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromer
I know that as rpms increse, as does speed, as does total hp, these differences are less and less noticeable. Maybe it is just my amateur type thinking that says that adding 20 hp to a 185 hp car will make a noticeable difference across the rev range at all speeds. But I soppose when this same 20 hp increase is applied to a car with already 250+ hp at high rpms and veryhigh speed, with a limiting turbo, this difference would be less noticeable.

Is this what the debate is all about? Cause then I guess I'd have to agree with whoever stated this first...I forget....
If you have a 185hp car and add 20hp you have 11% while the gain is 8% on the 250hp car. This is way the effect of the xhp feels more on a less powerfull car.
Vigge is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Saab Link Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Vehicle Info.
Enter your vehicle information (year, model, mods)
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
All content is copyright © The Saab Link and it's original authors.


 

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.