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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 06-04-2008, 12:11 PM   #1
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assorted questions and comments

Well I was pulling out my rear interior to prep for track day next week (car looks so strange with an inch of wheel gap in the back again) and I noticed a little flap cut into the carpet under the passenger rear seat - I lifted it up and there's a very cleanly cut circular hole in the floor that has a rubber plug or "door" type cover... I lift it out and I can see fuel tank. I thought NG900's didn't have floor access to the fuel pump? Is this evidence the pump might've already been replaced, perhaps at a dealer?

That aside - I've been communicating with Swedish Dynamics about maybe getting some of their Red Series cams... but my tuner tells me "Leave the head and cams alone!! Do not touch them until you are near 500hp" ????

My main goal is to not spend $1k getting 20 more hp, which is what I would have to do in moving from stage IV to stage V tuning... aero turbo, 18t upgrade, injectors, re-tune etc... seems like a smarter decision to me to just upgrade the cams since they are drop-in and the seller thinks they will easily net me 30 hp. It makes sense to me to upgrade the motor at this point rather than simply increasing boost pressure. I haven't seen ANY testimonials about running better cams in a mildly modded NG 2.0... did a bunch of searching which got me nowhere. Anyone have any advice?
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:24 PM   #2
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It has floor access to the connections and that is it.
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:28 PM   #3
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You generally need an ECU tune to match a cam change. By the time you install the cams with heavier springs, do any additional head work (degreeing, P&P) and an ECU tune, you could have dropped a bigger turbo and injectors on there. Just a thought.

Talk to Nick T @ Genuine. He sells Enem cams for Stg 4+ cars in two flavors I think.
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:40 PM   #4
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You generally need an ECU tune to match a cam change. By the time you install the cams with heavier springs, do any additional head work (degreeing, P&P) and an ECU tune, you could have dropped a bigger turbo and injectors on there. Just a thought.

Talk to Nick T @ Genuine. He sells Enem cams for Stg 4+ cars in two flavors I think.
Thanks! Couple thoughts on that: Red series cams are $300+ cheaper than Nick's. They are also drop-in, so none of that stuff is necessary, so it still works out to be much easier/cheaper than the turbo/injectors/tune. I was thinking I might tweak the good stage 4 tune I have now once I had the cams in there to try to get the most out of them (using t5 suite). Wouldn't think I'd need a completely new ecu tune since they aren't very aggressive cams?

Red series cams, valve cover gasket set, t5 suite = $500ish, 30hp or more
Enem cams, gasket set, retune = $800 to $1200 depending on cost of tune, 30hp or more
9000 aero turbo, 18t upgrade, injectors, retune = at least $1000, 20hp
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:45 PM   #5
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There may be a reason why the cams are cheaper.

Some custom cams are "regrinds" where they are what they sound like. Others are custom from the ground up from a "blank".
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:48 PM   #6
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I would say it may be worth investigating...with T5Suite, a whole new world of experimentation is available now.

I would ask Swedish Dynamics if they could provide you with dyno proof of just a cam swap providing such large gains. I'd be curious to see if they just shift the power band some, or if they really increase the area under the torque curve.
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:59 PM   #7
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There may be a reason why the cams are cheaper.

Some custom cams are "regrinds" where they are what they sound like. Others are custom from the ground up from a "blank".
Granted, but that doesn't sound inherently bad if they still perform. They also come with a lifetime guarantee.

8valvegrowl - They did email me a dyno chart:



but without much information attached (other mods, etc) When I called and talked to one of their sales reps they did give me a good bit of information though, the bit I was most concerned with was power band shift - he said it's still street oriented but has much better high rpm longevity compared to stock, which is good because I hate how the power falls flat on its face at high rpm. He also said that for the same price they could do a custom grind if I want even higher rpm power at the expense of less low rpm power. He also said quite a bit about faster spool up but I'm not sure how it could get much faster.

He also said the cams wouldn't necessitate new injectors, which makes me happy.

What do you guys think of the sheet? With such a small amount of information on it I can't tell if it's two powerbands being compared or torque and hp or what. I'm assuming it's one with cams, one without, just horsepower, and that gain in the mid rpm range looks quite nice, but I'd glady sacrifice it for even better high rpm gains.

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Old 06-04-2008, 01:28 PM   #8
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I can't tell crap off that sheet...the one with the higher midrange is pretty negligible, and pretty jagged to boot (+25hp @ 3500, but drops again at 3750). Plus the two runs were 10 minutes apart...no way they did a cam swap that quickly. These runs were taken in 2001...

I'd just be skeptical unless I could get more in depth info.
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Old 06-04-2008, 01:37 PM   #9
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Indeed. The website says the cams are 11 degrees more aggressive but I don't even know what the factory cams specs are or what the factory torque/power curve looks like. I guess I'll e-mail them again and wait for a reply from Nick on the e-mail I sent him.
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Old 06-04-2008, 01:53 PM   #10
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Swedish Dynamics stuff is generally just overpriced crap. I'd be very skeptical of cams that are supposedly "not that agressive" yet somehow add 30+hp. Also, from the looks of it that dyno was of a 85 900t, and a pretty agressively modified one judging by the way the power comes on, probably had their outrageously overpriced T3/T4 on it or something. I'd highly suggest not bothering with those cams, right now your limiting factor is probably the turbo, not the cams, thats why you were advised not to bother with the cams, they work just fine.

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Old 06-04-2008, 02:02 PM   #11
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Swedish Dynamics stuff is generally just overpriced crap. I'd be very skeptical of cams that are supposedly "not that agressive" yet somehow add 30+hp. Also, from the looks of it that dyno was of a 85 900t, and a pretty agressively modified one judging by the way the power comes on, probably had their outrageously overpriced T3/T4 on it or something. I'd highly suggest not bothering with those cams, right now your limiting factor is probably the turbo, not the cams, thats why you were advised not to bother with the cams, they work just fine.

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Old 06-04-2008, 02:09 PM   #12
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Quote:

Red series cams, valve cover gasket set, t5 suite = $500ish, 30hp or more
Enem cams, gasket set, retune = $800 to $1200 depending on cost of tune, 30hp or more
9000 aero turbo, 18t upgrade, injectors, retune = at least $1000, 20hp
You need to take into account what you need with T5suite to tune successful. You will need full data log from someone like innovate that will run you like $500 for AFR, EGT and logwork software if you want any success. Or you will probably burn your engine.
Or you could spend you money on dyno time and use their equipment prob 10 hours worth= $500.
Probably cheaper going option 2 18t or get a disco potato and be happy knowing that you prof. software is working correctly.
Just my opinion, feel free to say other wise
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:17 PM   #13
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Ah, excellent to know about the company, thanks guys.

The cams work just fine. Obviously. The T25 works fine as well but people replace it with the TD04... to make more power. Can't blame a guy for trying

and the point about tuning myself seems to make good sense, I will take it into account.
There's no way the 18t and stage 5 is an economical option though... the going rate on the 9000 aero turbo (based on today's post in the classifieds) is $400+... then $280+ for the upgrade to 18t, install it myself, $280 for injectors, $280+ for a retune. Professionally tuned, yes. Spent $1200+ for 20hp? Yep.

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Old 06-04-2008, 02:53 PM   #14
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but the 18T will most likely give you a better overall power band than the cams alone. The 18T is taking advantage of being able to flow more air for a larger portion of the revs than the cams. plus upgrading the injectors makes it easier to install a larger turbo down the road. After talking with NickT, he said cams wouldn't really be a benefit on stage 4 since you're not putting out enough power to really take advantage of a "better top-end" You're already close to maxing out the turbo

And anytime you put new cams in you SHOULD get a re-tuned. With t5suite you're becoming a guinea pig of sorts
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Old 06-04-2008, 04:14 PM   #15
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Ah, excellent to know about the company, thanks guys.

The cams work just fine. Obviously. The T25 works fine as well but people replace it with the TD04... to make more power. Can't blame a guy for trying

and the point about tuning myself seems to make good sense, I will take it into account.
There's no way the 18t and stage 5 is an economical option though... the going rate on the 9000 aero turbo (based on today's post in the classifieds) is $400+... then $280+ for the upgrade to 18t, install it myself, $280 for injectors, $280+ for a retune. Professionally tuned, yes. Spent $1200+ for 20hp? Yep.
Going from a T25 which will have max 270 hp or so to an 18T will give more than 20 hp more like 50-60hp and so much more fun. Cams alone wont give ANY more power as your T25 just cant flow anymore in the top end where cams would show there potential.
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Old 06-04-2008, 04:31 PM   #16
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There may be a reason why the cams are cheaper.

Some custom cams are "regrinds" where they are what they sound like. Others are custom from the ground up from a "blank".
Yeah regrinds are done by someone welding on material to then regrind down to the wanted lift/duration (only way to increase either is to build up material). This can cause a few problems. One, the added material is not always universal in its density which can cause to failure at higher RPMs or long periods of time. Two, in the end it is still added material which can be prone to failure.
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Old 06-04-2008, 05:46 PM   #17
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Going from a T25 which will have max 270 hp or so to an 18T will give more than 20 hp more like 50-60hp and so much more fun. Cams alone wont give ANY more power as your T25 just cant flow anymore in the top end where cams would show there potential.
I don't have a T25, I have hte TD04 15t. The point was that just because something is "fine" doesn't mean it can't be upgraded.

Changing cam profile orientation to higher rpms would yield higher power at high rpms, in theory, in any application. Until someone says something sensical and logical, with good reason, that theory still stands. I know people are saying "cams won't help until X power" but what about cams is discriminant to power output? My last car only had 150hp motor and putting in cams from an older motor opened up more power. I trust these experienced tuners who know a lot about the cars, I just want more reasoning than "don't do it, ya don't need to" and then a bunch of people reiterating the rhetoric to me.
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Old 06-04-2008, 05:56 PM   #18
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I don't have a T25, I have hte TD04 15t. The point was that just because something is "fine" doesn't mean it can't be upgraded.

Changing cam profile orientation to higher rpms would yield higher power at high rpms, in theory, in any application. Until someone says something sensical and logical, with good reason, that theory still stands. I know people are saying "cams won't help until X power" but what about cams is discriminant to power output? My last car only had 150hp motor and putting in cams from an older motor opened up more power. I trust these experienced tuners who know a lot about the cars, I just want more reasoning than "don't do it, ya don't need to" and then a bunch of people reiterating the rhetoric to me.
well, the major gain you can get with cams (in simple terms) is to let more air into the engine. In your case, the cams still have enough flow that they arent the backup in the system, the T25 is. You have to look at the whole picture, its not as simple as just add cams and you make more power, unless we are talking about an NA car, and even then its not that simple.

Paul
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:31 PM   #19
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Thank you. The only remaining element is wether or not camshafts engineered to raise the powerband from the 3k-5k range to the 5k-7k range would yield an overall increase. Common sense says it would since higher RPMs usually produce more power. I wouldn't mind that change to be honest as I only really want the extra power when I'm really romping on the car, but I don't know if it's the case since I haven't examined things like heat/turbocharger efficiency etc... and Nick most likely has. Case closed I suppose.
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:03 PM   #20
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Thank you. The only remaining element is wether or not camshafts engineered to raise the powerband from the 3k-5k range to the 5k-7k range would yield an overall increase. Common sense says it would since higher RPMs usually produce more power. I wouldn't mind that change to be honest as I only really want the extra power when I'm really romping on the car, but I don't know if it's the case since I haven't examined things like heat/turbocharger efficiency etc... and Nick most likely has. Case closed I suppose.
yeah the main issue with high rpm flow is in the turbo exhaust housing, its a big bottleneck, the cams aren't great, but the turbo is by far the biggest issue.

Paul
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