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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 05-07-2008, 07:14 PM   #1
Nick Taliaferro
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Gt3071 .64 compared to .86

Tied the Viggen on the dyno this evening to see what effect changing the Gt3071 exhaust housing from a .64 to .86 Went into it with big expectations but it really didn't put out.. Then it went from ok to not so ok.. Split a coolant hose on the turbo and made a huge mess. Well it is the Huge fan in front of it that made the biggest mess. It felt quite lazy from the drivers seat. Run was started wot at 1500rpm both times.



Both runs together.. Older one is .64


It is really apparent in the Boost.. "Man P"


Now it is not the complete picture but at least gives a good idea..
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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Old 05-07-2008, 07:34 PM   #2
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Quite interesting. Doesn't look like it made any large improvements in any comparison.
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Old 05-07-2008, 08:17 PM   #3
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WOW! Those 35whp gains vigge got just don't seem to be there at all and you really lost a ton of spool-up to only gain 4-5whp. Ok, so maybe its 10-12whp, but still not worth it.

It also shows an increase in iat????? That does not seem to make much sense unless the turbo and car are working harder while it struggles to make boost and by the time it does, the iat are higher.

I think you just found the reason for my supper laggy set-up as I am down in torque in the registry by about the same amount in rpm.

I think I will be ordering up the .64ar turbine housing for my gt3076 in the morning, the trade off is obviously not worth it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You made full boost a full 1000 rpm earlier and the intake temps where higher with the larger turbine??? Did you track any egt? I know you are ethonal, but still interested!

Thanks for testing, I have to try the .64ar now! That will probably solve my second to third gear issue and allow me the 1000rpm earlier spool!

John
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:37 AM   #4
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iat was not that closely controlled. I just made some back to back runs to be sure to get some heat in it. That variation is not a big influence anyway. Until it gets closer to 120f which is nearly impossible to do with this setup.

I am almost certain you would like the smaller exh house.

Oh the new clutch didn't slip at all..
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:46 AM   #5
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iat was not that closely controlled. I just made some back to back runs to be sure to get some heat in it. That variation is not a big influence anyway. Until it gets closer to 120f which is nearly impossible to do with this setup.

I am almost certain you would like the smaller exh house.

Oh the new clutch didn't slip at all..
Very cool looks liek a keeper. So it what is "this set-up" that keeps it under 120 is it the FMIC?\\

What clught are you on now?
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:53 AM   #6
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The results do not seem to follow the pattern which I have seen happen in in 3-4 four cars including my own where the same swap has been made. One obvious guestion, which I think is clear but you have the trim 84 ar.0.86 housing intact not the ar 0.86 meant for the 90trim turbine wheel? And WG is checked so there is plenty pre-tension on it and it not leaking during spool? The reson for asking is the raise rate of spool, its lazy very lazy and it takes for ever in terms of rpm to raise to a good level. If I compare for instance 22.5psi, you reach it roughly at 4400rpms while I see it just before 3900 in 3rd and 24psi by 4000rpm compared to slitly over 4500rpms in your case.

In your tq curve the biggest difference is around 400lb-ft where the difference in si slitly over 600rpms in favor of the smaller housing. Up top in term of peak hp there does not seem to be much of a diffence and I think the main reason for this is that the compressor is "out" and you have already reched pretty much the level it can give with the smaller housing. However the curve should stay up longer with the bigger housing, but some of that is lost to the higher temp. OK it not much in F's but if you keep a close look on what is going on with boost and accelaration when temp raises you will note that the maxed out compressor will suffer from it more than what is expected.

Since AFR, boost and bhp in high revs are more or less equal I dont think there is much of a difference in back pressure either, it will be "more than high enough with both housings".

I have had in mind to do a likewise test with my car after I put the cams in, to see how it behaves now compared to the set-up with std T7 head and T5 cams where I had a problem where high rpm area was lacking. At that time it opened up with the 0.86 housing, so in my case it was worth the hassle.

This test was good since and all the of the swaps I have witnessed have been to cars where cams are std. OK, I'am aware of few cars in Sweden with 0.64 housing and with big cams/heads etc and they do produce more or less the same as cars with 0.86 housing, so in that sense the resutls obtained in your case in high rpms are alike. The bottom though I think can be better, but may not be worth it if you cannot find away to keep the bhp from falling after 5500. E85 may also have it say and if the back pressrue raises with the smaller housing it may be the limiting factor for me for not to achieve as much bhp in high revs what I make today with the 0.86 housing.
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:16 AM   #7
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I had some of the same thoughts, that was my old gt3071 84 trim .86ar turbine housing and it had the waste-gate ported out and I found it took much more base boost to hold it shut and wonder if Nick increased the base boost accordingly???

I am going to have to try a .64 ar housing on my set-up as the gains are huge in spool-up and torque.

John
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:29 AM   #8
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Yes I increased the base boost. The first run after a few seconds of steady manual load to get some hat in it it felt like the wastegate rod fell off. I tightened it up a bunch.. Maybe 1 pin diameter. Before on the old one it would slip on the arm.

There was some erosion damage in the exh housing. Might make some of the issue. Even then it would make more up top. I think we are out of compressor too. Anybody else have one to try? Maybe just time to order a 76
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2.0 GOOSE 500whp + 8500rpm = 11.06 @125 E85
Viggen 439whp / 447tq 12.43 @114 on Gt2871.64, (Now 511whp Gt3076)
Nordic E85 9-3 SS Aero 320hp / 350ftlbs
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:37 AM   #9
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Maybe just time to order a 76
Just get a Holset and get the job over no need to respirate step by step.
By anyhow if you take the 76 path, see out that the turbine wheel is the 60mm model, not the same 56.5mm what you currently have in the 71, since I personally I feel that that combo is kind-of like the 2871 (not so good bottom since turbine cant provide enough power to spin the "oversize" compressor" and somewhat limited top when the turbine is eventually clogged by the increased flow what the bigger compressor can provide.)
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Old 05-08-2008, 10:51 AM   #10
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Yea I agree, I think the 56.5 with 90trim is just not big enough to spin the 76mm compressor wheel and it does seem to spool a lot like the gt2871 compared to the 3071.

Of course the t3 3076 has the 60mm turbine wheel and the slightly larger 76.2mm compressor wheel. I have thought of the 3082, but wonder if the same thing would happen, 60mm turbine wheel with 82mm compressor wheel.

Might just be better to get the 3582 with 68mm turbine wheel and 82mm compressor wheel. Atp did say that it would spool up much later than the 3076 that I have now.

If the smaller turbine housing helps as much on my turbo, 3076wg, as it appears on Nick's set-up, that would be a pretty nice set-up as its hard to use much more than 450-480whp.... Unless you want to go from 100-180mph quickly and or love to spin the tires at 75mph+....

I just ordered the .64ar tubine.... 275.00! Ouch, I hope it give the good spool without causing super high egts or back pressure, I guess I will find out soon enough...

John
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Old 05-08-2008, 11:06 AM   #11
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Very cool looks liek a keeper. So it what is "this set-up" that keeps it under 120 is it the FMIC?\\

What clught are you on now?
The cams drop the egts by a good 150-200f and Nick runs ethonal and that helps too. So with the enem cams and nice tubular manifold and ethonal, its hard to get into the "red zone" with egts.

My car on gasoline with 512whp sae in Denver, never got above 1550F on the dyno. With stock cams I was in the 1868F range

Check this out, dashed line is gt3076, solid line is 3071, both with enem cams and .86ar turbine housing. I did find 6 small boost leaks between the testing and that is probably why the 3076 is better than the 3071.

John
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Old 05-08-2008, 11:56 AM   #12
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If everyting goes to plan I will carry out the housing swap tomorrow and to zero costs since I have 2 ar 64 housings sitting in my garage.
Naturally EGT's, backpressure, acceleration and much more will be logged.
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Old 05-08-2008, 12:49 PM   #13
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I am very interested in seeing another test to eliminate any variables that might have been at work on Nick's test. The housing did have some light scraping damage from when it blew up on me, but not enought to explain the big loss in my opinion. The other point is that my new turbo with .86ar is acting very similar to Nick's test and Nick actually still manages to spool up a little earlier, maybe 400rpm on peak torque, but I am at 6000' and I have a larger turbo with larger wheel trim.

If you compare the gt3071wg .86ar with 90trim, its almost identical to my set-up at sea-level by atp!
http://www.atpturbo.com/root/release...3071r_86ar.htm


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Old 05-08-2008, 01:40 PM   #14
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If you compare the gt3071wg .86ar with 90trim, its almost identical to my set-up at sea-level by atp!
http://www.atpturbo.com/root/release...3071r_86ar.htm
do you happen to know from what car (engine displacement) and other HW the curves are from? Looking at the tq vs rpm I would guess we are looking at something like a 1.8 Audi, but plese verify if you know
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:10 PM   #15
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where did you guys get your gt071r's? i was going to go through garrett, unless you guys found a better way.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:17 PM   #16
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where did you guys get your gt071r's? i was going to go through garrett, unless you guys found a better way.
Plenty of places, try google to start.

APT, Forced performance, precision turbo, optionimports slow boy racing ect ect ect.

I'm getting my from a Precision turbo dealer located in MA, he is also building my manifold and turbo back.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:22 PM   #17
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Plenty of places, try google to start.

APT, Forced performance, precision turbo, optionimports slow boy racing ect ect ect.

I'm getting my from a Precision turbo dealer located in MA, he is also building my manifold and turbo back.
how much is he asking for all that? where in mass is this place?
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:28 PM   #18
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how much is he asking for all that? where in mass is this place?
http://candcperformancefabrication.com

His prices are pretty fair about 850 for a manifold pulse tuned. Turbo around 1300 modding my existing DP and building a catback for around 350 all vband. If everything works our correctly I'm having him built Tweek a manifold also.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:34 PM   #19
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http://candcperformancefabrication.com

His prices are pretty fair about 850 for a manifold pulse tuned. Turbo around 1300 modding my existing DP and building a catback for around 350 all vband. If everything works our correctly I'm having him built Tweek a manifold also.
might have to add me to that list aswell. ill get back to you about it.
what are you using for injectors?
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:33 PM   #20
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If everyting goes to plan I will carry out the housing swap tomorrow and to zero costs since I have 2 ar 64 housings sitting in my garage.
Naturally EGT's, backpressure, acceleration and much more will be logged.
everything went to plan and the 0.64 ar. housing is now installed, but it wont be until tomorrow before I can test it. Backpressure will lack, since I accidentally took the wrong size thread pin from work, to make the tap for the connection ...
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