More Viggen Data Logs: 26.36 lbs/min of airflow!! - The Saab Link Forums

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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 01-10-2005, 01:39 AM   #1
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More Viggen Data Logs: 26.36 lbs/min of airflow!!

I had been suspicious of losing power, and after changing the plugs my suspicions were confirmed. Today I was able to quantify those suspicions!! Previously my peak MAF flow was 24.45 lbs/min, now it's 26.36 lbs/min!! For reference a standard 185 hp Saab turbo runs about 17 lbs/min of airflow. While the ignition timing plays a LARGE role in the amount of power produced at any given airflow, 26.36 lbs/min is enough air to make 287 hp, which would be around 244 hp at the wheels. But that's all assuming perfect ignition; the ignition timing in the log is GOOD, but not perfect. It's still WAY more than 230 bhp. The only mods are an airfilter, cooler thermostat and ducting for the stock intercooler.

Those old BCPR7ES-11's just were too pooped to pop; the new set is really kickin' some horsepower out of this lil 2.3L!

Here's the highest MAF log:


Here's the timing for the highest MAF log:


Here are two more MAF logs over 25 lbs/min to prove it's not a fluke:




Here's the ignition timing for the second highest MAF log:


And here's the Manifold Absolute Pressure for the highest MAF log:


w00t !!!

Adrian W~
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Old 01-10-2005, 08:02 AM   #2
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Looking good Adrian. Just curious about you intake temps and what the curve looks like.
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Old 01-10-2005, 08:43 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERP
Looking good Adrian. Just curious about you intake temps and what the curve looks like.
Consider it done! Since my lower ducting (err, duct tape. Hey it was just an experiment!) seems to have come loose in the rain, temps are slightly (5 degrees or so) higher than they were in similar weather before. But also MAF fflow was slightly higher, so that is expected. The upper ducting that keeps air from going OVER the intercooler has held up like a champ!

This is the full log from that 40 minute or so run. Hopefully it is useful:

Here's the temperature data superimposed with that 26.36 lbs/min flow data. This was, not coincidentally, the highest recorded temp for that run:


Here is the same layout of data but for the first few accellerations in that run:


Adrian~
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:12 AM   #4
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i am just curious what equiment you were using to make these measurments? would think it would be kinda cool to make logs of stuff like that for my car so i can kinda have a before and after comparisson. Thanks btw nice work on the logs
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:22 AM   #5
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Great charts and all but you can explain to us what this means? Don't change your plugs or what?
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Old 01-10-2005, 11:05 AM   #6
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haha. Of course I change my plugs. The ones that came out of the car only had 5K miles on them! I thought they would last longer. I also removed them when I first started having the boost "problem" and they didn't look fouled. Granted T7 likes to run rich, but the electrodes were clean.

I use Auto Enginuity's Scan Tool for my measurements. It has it's share of drawbacks, such as slow sample rate, but it has advantages too, such as being able to monitor and even initiate system tests.

What all this means is two things:

1) If you feel like you're losing boost, try changing the plugs. It's only like $8 USD, and in my case the car went from an average peak flow of around 22.5 lbs/min up to around 25.5 lbs/min. That's roughly 35 hp worth of airflow! Even if your plugs don't "look dirty" they can still be robbing you of precious horses!

2) A Viggen with a 180*F thermostat and some minor intercooler ducting for the stock intercooler has a LOT more than 230 hp. My MAF sensor pulled in nearly as much air at peak flow as Vigge's highly modified Viggen, which dyno'd at around 280-290 crank hp. Do I think my car has that much hp? Honestly, I don't know. But it makes you think, doesn't it?

My interpretation:

I believe the Viggen's T7 software has a "sweet spot" in the 180-189*F coolant temp range. When I first got the car I noticed that it was always fastest JUST after reaching 180F (level on the meter), and then after one or two full throttle runs it never got that speed back (if you read my old posts on SSc you might see me complaining about exactly that); the stock thermostat won't let it go back down below 193F. Unfortunately I don't have any logs from my old thermostat, and I wish I did. But I believe the 180F unit is key in helping resist detonation, and that there is at least a possibility that the stock maps may have a higher set of mg/c values when the coolant is cooler than "normal" for the stock car.

FWIW: 26.36 lbs/minute is more airflow than the TD04 on the stock WRX is capable of flowing. Many of the tuners claim well in excess of 300 hp on the stock turbo. My car does NOT have 300 hp ... but it does make you think, doesn't it?

Yes, it's all just theory and you can take it however you want. But obviously the car has a LOT of power even on very low octane and there must be a reason for it, right?

Adrian~
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Old 01-10-2005, 11:41 AM   #7
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Get this thing dynoed already
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Old 01-10-2005, 11:49 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by rcmdesign
Get this thing dynoed already
I'll see what I can do. My only dyno run so far was with stock plugs and thermostat. I'm curious where the car will stand now as well. Hmmmmm.
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Old 01-10-2005, 12:23 PM   #9
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I spoke to a master tech at SAAB of Mission Viejo who was telling me that the T7 is capable of running within 20% +/- of its rated HP based on gas, ambient temps, plug condition etc..... This makes sense sinse no T7 seems to put down the same numbers on a Dyno ever....


Speaking of Dyno's Adrian I am in the process of setting up some dyno time with GRC Performance in Mission Viejo later this month or first thing next month is you are interested? It is $65 for 3 runs with Air/Fuel and the works with time to make mods in between pulls. Let me know if you want to go and I will get it setup. This offer is open to anyone in Socal who wants to go down by the way.
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Old 01-10-2005, 02:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehayes01
I spoke to a master tech at SAAB of Mission Viejo who was telling me that the T7 is capable of running within 20% +/- of its rated HP based on gas, ambient temps, plug condition etc..... This makes sense sinse no T7 seems to put down the same numbers on a Dyno ever....


Speaking of Dyno's Adrian I am in the process of setting up some dyno time with GRC Performance in Mission Viejo later this month or first thing next month is you are interested? It is $65 for 3 runs with Air/Fuel and the works with time to make mods in between pulls. Let me know if you want to go and I will get it setup. This offer is open to anyone in Socal who wants to go down by the way.
Like I said, I'm interested in getting comparable dyno-results from a popular tuner's dyno; the most popular one in this state is Vishnu (that I know of) so that's probably where I'll go when I get the chance.

As for T7 ... it will "try" to get certain "ideal" values. My car is running right about at the ragged edge of the map. I know it can adapt at least 20% down ... but I'm not sure about adapting up. 25 lbs/min is "zero knock correction" @ 5400 RPM. Beyond that and the ignition timing drops rapidly, which isn't good.

Besides that, now that I've got good plugs in the car the 25-26 lbs/min values appear to be consistant. Weird ...

Adrian~
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:11 PM   #11
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Thats cool was just hoping to see the Viggen! I thought since I am going I would offer up the contact. GRC is one of the better know Mustang tuners (outside of Rousche) in SoCal so they mainly deal with V-8's but have recently started tuning some Japanese as well. They have some of the quickest turn around times on getting Dyno appointments and have even been used on SPEED for some of there Mustang projects.

I tend to believe the 20% projection when you look at Ricots car and see that it put out way more Hp than it should have even though it had not gone through the adaptaion mode yet. But only the dyno will tell so hopefully I can get in soon to get mine done and see where it sits. I will be doing 2 seperate types of runs.

1st run will be as I roll in no changes and in stock trim (except) the SMBC, K&N Dropin and 3" Air box mod.

2nd and 3rd Run will be after resetting the ECU with same mod list so I can see what the car will do prior to adaptation.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:40 PM   #12
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Isn't there a SoCal meet on the 15th? I kinda wanted to go to that if it's still gonna happen. Not 100% sure, but I need info to know! Hopefully it's not still raining.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:46 PM   #13
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There is a Socal Meet on the 15th! 9 Saabs registered for it so far in a sea of other Euros! Its a free event and the more the merrier man! Right now there are about 500 Eurpos coming in to the event. It is at the Hooters/Anahein Stadium parking structure off the 57 Freeway in Anaheim/Orange off Katella.

Heres the link to the main page about it. and the line up so far of SAAB's.

http://rsvp.socaleuro.com/

Drew (dasaabguy) 1995 Saab 900 SET Vert
Demetrivs (raske9k) 1997 Saab 9000 CSE Turbo
Charles (MokFan) 2000 Saab 9-3 Viggen
Steve (stevehayes01) 2000 Saab 9-3 SE HOT
Seth (socalviggen) 2002 Saab 9-3 Viggen
Tim (thechinks) 2002 Saab 95
Chris (MoviStar) 2003 Saab 9-3 BSR Arc
Sue (LaSaabGirl) 2004 Saab 9-3 SS
Dan (RedE30iS) 2004 Saab 9-2x 5spd. Black
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