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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 10-21-2004, 01:19 AM   #1
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Viggen Road Test Data

Here's some data I collected from my Viggen.

The car still doesn't seem to want to run full boost, and the ignition timing is downright disturbing! Definitely no room for "tuning" on 91 octane without some serious hardware modifications!

The intercooler has been "ducted" so that air is forced over it, and the intake system has been heat isolated.

The ambient temperature was 56 degrees, the humidity was 100%, and during the run listed it was sprinking water a little. (Definitely going to have to see what the temps are like on a hot-dry day.) But the fact that full throttle from a stop to around 80 mph only raised intake temps 40 degrees at this temperature was somewhat comforting ... only somewhat.

Bunch of sensors:



Ignition Timing vs. Manifold Abosolute Pressure:




Interesting stuff.

Adrian~
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Old 10-21-2004, 05:33 AM   #2
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yes, quite interesting.. why do work to the current intercooler.. its junk, why not upgrade to a new one.,.?
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Old 10-21-2004, 05:42 AM   #3
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uh ohhh something tells me that might provoke an interesting but debated response that might be interesting......let's see about 6:45 on the West coast, wonder if he's up yet... :P
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Old 10-21-2004, 06:26 AM   #4
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uh ohhh something tells me that might provoke an interesting but debated response that might be interesting......let's see about 6:45 on the West coast, wonder if he's up yet... :P

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Old 10-21-2004, 07:45 AM   #5
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Adrian,
what OBDII interface/software are you using to pull this data from the T7?

BTW: your timing curve is very interesting...or should I say scary....what kinda gas you running, sugar water!?!? j/k...what brand of gas are you running?

Obvious from the graph, timing advance/retard almost mirrors intake temp increase/decrease....good data to back up that cooling the intake temps is very important.

Great data!

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Old 10-21-2004, 10:58 AM   #6
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www.Scantool.net sells obd-loggers that work with saab. The only problem with these loggers is the speed one can log data (look at adrians log). With an OBD logger from www.scantool.net and a free SW called OBD logger, you can log data with refresrate of 1-1.5hz. All the other SW's are much slower so dont waste your money on digimoto for instance.
To speed up the log, monitor only one or two sensors at a time.


Adrian, could you log rpm and MAF (any gear 2000-6200) and make a grapgh airmass/combustion vs. RPM. I would like to see what the achieved values are for a stock viggen.
Note, log only these two values no others.
note 2, values are not read simultaniously, but one by one, so use a two value adverage for rpm, when calculating airmass/combustion.
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:23 PM   #7
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My scantool was the AutoEnginuity Scan too. Works well, but had to borrow someone else's laptop until my USB 2.0 --> Serial converter comes next week.

The ignition timing curves ARE scary, but I've never seen anyone else publish ignition curves for their Saab, and C900's normally run about 10 degrees BTDC once they hit boost ... I just expected a bit more from T7!

Also, it's not the temperature and timing that are so directly related, it's the pressure and timing. Soon as it hits boost timing is pulled back to about 10 BTDC.

Also in this cooler weather with my 180F degree thermostat the temperature usually just hovered around 180F, staying slightly below most of the time. I was a bit suprised by that!

Trying to dig up an RPM vs. MAF flow graph ... but my MAF flow is in the US lbs/minute ... multiply by 7.56 to obtain grams/second.

Here we go:


Peak milligrams/combustion should occur at peak torque. So I found a good data-point for that. (t = 17.5 or so, 9.67 lbs/min, 2710 RPM) ... and it reveals roughly 809 milligrams/combustion.

At that exact same data-point the throttle position was only at 55%, and the MAP was 43.7"Hg. That seems quite a bit suspicious.

Another data plot at 4909 RPM, 74% throttle, and 53.4"Hg MAP, (t = 8.5 or so, it's the first RPM peak), the airflow was 17.35 lbs/min. This yields exactly 801.5 mg/combustion @ 4909 RPM despite having more manifold pressure and more throttle angle.

Here are some interesting things to note from this:

1. At least on my car T7 appears to be controlling boost entirely by throttle angle. This would be why BOV's don't work well with T7, and why T7 has a solenoid to control the ByPassValve.

Normally any time there is pressure drop across the throttle, the BOV would open, but T7 operates constantly with pressure drop across the throttle, meaning the BPV has to be electronically controlled to keep from dumping boost.

2. The mg/combustion was held nearly constant across the entire power-band despite huge changes in intake temeprature and pressure. This would render a Manual Boost Control completely useless, as if the boost control solenoid is being used (it isn't always even used), once the ECU sees more mg/c than it wants, it will just adapt and reduce the throttle angle some more.

This goes in line with what I saw when I tried to use a standard MBC on the Viggen a couple years ago before I knew about all this. I kept having to turn it up because the ECU kept learning and closing the throttle.

3. Also interesting to note that the temperature sensor is located BEFORE the throttle on T7, and so therefore when at 55% throttle, the temp sensor is going to be reading at a location which is at a higher pressure than after the throttle. This means the temperature may very well be lower after the throttle.

4. T7 even stock should be putting a little mg/combustion than this. Mine is undoubtedly being restricted by the low octane fuel here in California. But also, there may be something wrong with the car, as it normally behaves a bit differently than this. So I still have some troubleshooting to do.

5. As for the stock intercooler, if you live in a very cool climate (65F or below most of the year) it should be adequate cooling wise. With a few modifications.

122F was the highest I could get it to go in nearly an hour of testing with just some intercooler ducting work, and insulated intake piping. (Granted it was in cool weather, but "cool" depends on where you live. In Sweden it would have been downright tropical weather. )

More data to come obviously. But at the moment I am a bit pre-occupied with fault-tracing. I may toss in some race gas, reset the ECU and see how it learns from there. I tried Toluene, and it didn't seem to change anything. So I'm wondering if there's some kind of fault going on.

Normally in this weather completely stock it would run more boost pressure. And normally any addition of Toluene would make a huge difference in performance ... but doesn't seem to have an effect lately. Very odd.

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Old 10-21-2004, 05:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge
The only problem with these loggers is the speed one can log data (look at adrians log). With an OBD logger from www.scantool.net and a free SW called OBD logger, you can log data with refresrate of 1-1.5hz. All the other SW's are much slower so dont waste your money on digimoto for instance.
To speed up the log, monitor only one or two sensors at a time.


Adrian, could you log rpm and MAF (any gear 2000-6200) and make a grapgh airmass/combustion vs. RPM. I would like to see what the achieved values are for a stock viggen.
Note, log only these two values no others.
note 2, values are not read simultaniously, but one by one, so use a two value adverage for rpm, when calculating airmass/combustion.
This might be why mine was so slow. Here's roughly ONE minute's worth of data:

Time Ign. Timing Adv. C1 (deg) [-64.0 - 63.5] Time Long Term FT B1 (%) [-100.00 - 99.22] Time Intake Air Temp. (F) [-40 - 419] Time MAF Air Flow Rate (lb/min) [0.00 - 86.70] Time Short Term FT B1 (%) [-100.00 - 99.22] Time Intake Man. Abs. Pres. (in.hg) [0.0 - 75.2] Time Abs. Throttle Pos. (%) [0 - 100] Time Coolant Temperature (F) [-40 - 419] Time Engine RPM (r/min) [0 - 9000]

07:20:19:851 9.5 07:20:20:061 -3.12 07:20:20:411 79 07:20:20:642 0.69 07:20:20:862 3.9 07:20:21:172 11.8 07:20:21:393 19 07:20:21:613 174 07:20:21:813 910
07:20:22:044 11 07:20:22:244 -3.12 07:20:22:464 79 07:20:22:675 1.81 07:20:22:885 5.46 07:20:23:085 19.2 07:20:23:366 28 07:20:23:616 174 07:20:23:846 1626
07:20:24:117 24 07:20:24:347 -3.12 07:20:24:577 79 07:20:24:818 3.11 07:20:25:048 9.36 07:20:25:268 18.6 07:20:25:499 28 07:20:25:729 174 07:20:25:969 2751
07:20:26:240 39 07:20:26:470 -3.12 07:20:26:750 77 07:20:26:991 1.38 07:20:27:231 15.6 07:20:27:462 8 07:20:27:682 21 07:20:27:912 172 07:20:28:142 2118
07:20:28:423 15 07:20:28:663 -3.12 07:20:28:904 77 07:20:29:224 0.75 07:20:29:474 7.02 07:20:29:715 9.1 07:20:29:945 19 07:20:30:185 172 07:20:30:416 983
07:20:30:686 7.5 07:20:30:926 -3.12 07:20:31:157 79 07:20:31:387 2.78 07:20:31:617 5.46 07:20:31:848 27.7 07:20:32:068 33 07:20:32:318 172 07:20:32:539 1741
07:20:32:809 23 07:20:33:040 -3.12 07:20:33:290 79 07:20:33:510 4.14 07:20:33:771 10.92 07:20:34:011 28.3 07:20:34:241 35 07:20:34:482 172 07:20:34:752 2728
07:20:35:293 9.5 07:20:35:533 -3.12 07:20:35:844 81 07:20:36:114 17.35 07:20:36:374 0 07:20:36:595 53.4 07:20:36:825 74 07:20:37:055 174 07:20:37:326 4909
07:20:37:596 12.5 07:20:37:826 -3.12 07:20:38:057 106 07:20:38:297 3.6 07:20:38:527 0 07:20:38:768 6.8 07:20:38:998 72 07:20:39:228 176 07:20:39:459 3791
07:20:39:769 6 07:20:40:010 -3.12 07:20:40:240 111 07:20:40:470 19.15 07:20:40:701 0 07:20:41:001 51.9 07:20:41:341 73 07:20:41:632 178 07:20:41:972 4726
07:20:42:263 10 07:20:42:493 -3.12 07:20:42:743 120 07:20:42:974 7.47 07:20:43:264 0 07:20:43:495 5.9 07:20:43:755 21 07:20:43:985 181 07:20:44:216 2378
07:20:44:476 8 07:20:44:716 -3.12 07:20:44:937 122 07:20:45:167 0.98 07:20:45:397 0.78 07:20:45:628 12.4 07:20:45:858 20 07:20:46:078 185 07:20:46:329 955
07:20:46:589 2 07:20:46:829 -3.12 07:20:47:050 111 07:20:47:280 0.78 07:20:47:520 0.78 07:20:47:771 12.7 07:20:48:001 19 07:20:48:221 189 07:20:48:452 935
07:20:48:732 -7 07:20:48:972 -3.12 07:20:49:213 106 07:20:49:453 0.79 07:20:49:683 0 07:20:49:914 6.8 07:20:50:134 20 07:20:50:364 190 07:20:50:615 2068
07:20:50:875 18.5 07:20:51:106 -3.12 07:20:51:336 102 07:20:51:576 2.42 07:20:51:807 3.9 07:20:52:037 14.8 07:20:52:267 26 07:20:52:498 189 07:20:52:728 2179
07:20:53:008 32 07:20:53:239 -3.12 07:20:53:469 97 07:20:53:699 3.05 07:20:53:920 0.78 07:20:54:150 24.8 07:20:54:380 58 07:20:54:621 183 07:20:54:851 2373
07:20:55:121 3.5 07:20:55:352 -3.12 07:20:55:582 91 07:20:55:822 9.67 07:20:56:053 0 07:20:56:283 43.7 07:20:56:523 55 07:20:56:774 178 07:20:57:024 2710
07:20:57:314 33.5 07:20:57:555 -3.12 07:20:57:805 91 07:20:58:035 0.81 07:20:58:276 0.78 07:20:58:506 7.4 07:20:58:787 20 07:20:59:037 176 07:20:59:267 1969
07:20:59:528 23.5 07:20:59:798 -3.12 07:21:00:038 91 07:21:00:269 1.75 07:21:00:509 -0.78 07:21:00:739 12.1 07:21:00:980 24 07:21:01:210 176 07:21:01:460 1961
07:21:01:731 24.5 07:21:01:961 -3.12 07:21:02:191 88 07:21:02:432 2.85 07:21:02:662 -1.56 07:21:02:892 18.3 07:21:03:123 27 07:21:03:353 176 07:21:03:573 1976
07:21:03:844 18.5 07:21:04:074 -3.12 07:21:04:325 86 07:21:04:545 2.86 07:21:04:805 -4.68 07:21:05:036 18.3 07:21:05:266 26 07:21:05:506 176 07:21:05:737 1976
07:21:05:997 22.5 07:21:06:217 -3.12 07:21:06:458 86 07:21:06:688 2.72 07:21:06:918 -3.12 07:21:07:149 17.4 07:21:07:419 26 07:21:07:629 178 07:21:07:870 1977
07:21:08:140 28 07:21:08:380 -3.12 07:21:08:611 84 07:21:08:831 3.64 07:21:09:061 -3.12 07:21:09:292 8.3 07:21:09:522 21 07:21:09:752 178 07:21:09:973 2371
07:21:10:243 9 07:21:10:473 -3.12 07:21:10:714 84 07:21:10:944 2.31 07:21:11:174 -0.78 07:21:11:405 16.8 07:21:11:635 29 07:21:11:865 178 07:21:12:086 2540
07:21:12:356 28.5 07:21:12:586 -3.12 07:21:12:817 82 07:21:13:047 3.98 07:21:13:277 -0.78 07:21:13:508 18.9 07:21:13:738 28 07:21:13:978 176 07:21:14:209 2590
07:21:14:469 26.5 07:21:14:709 -3.12 07:21:14:950 81 07:21:15:170 3.79 07:21:15:400 -0.78 07:21:15:631 25.1 07:21:15:861 61 07:21:16:091 176 07:21:16:322 2697
07:21:16:602 -2 07:21:16:833 -3.12 07:21:17:063 82 07:21:17:293 12.03 07:21:17:513 0 07:21:17:744 46.3 07:21:17:974 62 07:21:18:204 176 07:21:18:435 3041
07:21:18:725 0 07:21:18:966 -3.12 07:21:19:206 88 07:21:19:426 14.84 07:21:19:657 0 07:21:19:887 48.4 07:21:20:117 66 07:21:20:348 176 07:21:20:578 3384
07:21:20:898 -0.5 07:21:21:129 -3.12 07:21:21:359 99 07:21:21:589 16.27 07:21:21:820 0 07:21:22:040 49 07:21:22:270 69 07:21:22:501 176 07:21:22:731 3773
07:21:23:001 2 07:21:23:232 -3.12 07:21:23:452 106 07:21:23:682 17.01 07:21:23:913 0 07:21:24:143 47.8 07:21:24:373 69 07:21:24:604 178 07:21:24:824 4100
07:21:25:094 6.5 07:21:25:325 -3.12 07:21:25:555 111 07:21:25:805 18.77 07:21:26:106 0 07:21:26:326 48.1 07:21:26:556 30 07:21:26:807 181 07:21:27:047 4260
07:21:27:308 12 07:21:27:548 -3.12 07:21:27:768 113 07:21:27:999 1.71 07:21:28:229 -0.78 07:21:28:459 6.8 07:21:28:680 23 07:21:28:920 183 07:21:29:160 3501
07:21:29:421 7.5 07:21:29:661 -3.12 07:21:29:891 108 07:21:30:122 1.43 07:21:30:352 -1.56 07:21:30:582 6.8 07:21:30:853 22 07:21:31:083 185 07:21:31:313 2893
07:21:31:584 8 07:21:31:854 -3.12 07:21:32:084 102 07:21:32:315 1.05 07:21:32:555 -2.34 07:21:32:785 5.9 07:21:33:016 20 07:21:33:236 185 07:21:33:466 2715
07:21:33:737 8 07:21:33:967 -3.12 07:21:34:197 99 07:21:34:418 1.55 07:21:34:658 0.78 07:21:34:888 15.3 07:21:35:109 28 07:21:35:349 181 07:21:35:579 2619
07:21:35:890 32.5 07:21:36:130 -3.12 07:21:36:371 91 07:21:36:621 3.51 07:21:36:851 -4.68 07:21:37:082 16.8 07:21:37:312 28 07:21:37:542 180 07:21:37:773 2635
07:21:38:033 33 07:21:38:273 -3.12 07:21:38:494 88 07:21:38:724 3.6 07:21:38:954 -3.12 07:21:39:185 17.4 07:21:39:445 28 07:21:39:685 178 07:21:39:916 2671
07:21:40:176 29 07:21:40:406 -3.12 07:21:40:647 88 07:21:40:887 4.01 07:21:41:107 0.78 07:21:41:338 18.9 07:21:41:568 28 07:21:41:798 178 07:21:42:029 2704
07:21:42:289 31 07:21:42:529 -3.12 07:21:42:750 86 07:21:42:990 4.04 07:21:43:220 0.78 07:21:43:451 19.8 07:21:43:691 30 07:21:43:911 178 07:21:44:142 2749
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Old 10-21-2004, 05:17 PM   #9
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I'll try to go back later and get some solid air-mass/combustion average values soon. The MAF was reading just over a second sooner than the RPM.

Therefore the MAF values listed before should be slightly higher, but since in both cases the RPM's were climbing at a similar rate, the comparison to show that the values were nearly the same across the RPM band should still be valid.

Off to go play guitar at StarBucks again. w00t Jam session!

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Old 10-22-2004, 08:23 PM   #10
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Ok, to get some more concrete air-mass/combustion values I regressed the RPM data. I used a set of RPM values where the MAP was nearly constant, and RPM rate of climb was nearly constant, so a line regression worked well.

The regression for this specific data set was RPM = 167.28T - 45.77

(I've attached a graph of the RPM versus time for that region to validate that a line regression should be accurate even for points not directly measured.)

Then I just plugged in the exact time for specific MAF values into the formula and got an exact RPM to base the calculations from.

The direct conversion from lbs/min to grams/second is about 7.56.

Milligrams/Combustion = (lbs/minute) x (453.6 grams/lb) x (1000 milligrams/gram) / [ (Revolutions/Minute) x (2 combustions/ Revolution)]

@ T = 17.293 s
MAF = 12.03 lbs/minute
RPM = 2847
Air-mass/combustion = 958 milligrams/combustion

@ T = 19.426 s
MAF = 14.84 lbs/minute
RPM = 3204
Air-mass/combustion = 1050 milligrams/combustion

@ T = 21.589 s
MAF = 16.27 lbs/minute
RPM = 3566
Air-mass/combustion = 1,035 milligrams/combustion

@ T = 23.682 s
MAF = 17.01 lbs/minute
RPM = 3916
Air-mass/combustion = 985 milligrams/combustion

That should give a pretty good idea. I found that the sampling rate on my logger is variable for each kind of data. So for things which do not change quickly I can lower the sampling rate, and things which do increase quickly, can change the sampling rate. (As low as 50ms) That should help things.

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Old 10-22-2004, 09:00 PM   #11
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Here's something distrubing ... for that same set of data I used to get the mg/combustion check out the timing versus MAP ... (Pink = MAP in inches of Hg, and Blue = Timing advance on cyllinder # 1)





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