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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 08-23-2007, 06:48 AM   #1
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ECU Torque Map Comparison's

I found this interesting as i was looking at multiple stock files and comparing the identified Torque tables (thanks Drew). The compare is between Drew's Stage3,4 a Stock Viggen and a B205L Automatic 185HP car.

Notice the far right of this map ...... see how it is dipped. The Automatic trans has a torque limiting factor early in the RPM range and for the the initial launch which I beleive is represented here.





This is the stock Viggen map........




And this is Drew's Stage 3,4 ish map.......





Bonus Map....... Stage 1 B235R 9-5 Aero......

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Old 08-23-2007, 07:49 AM   #2
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All maps look like that have some kind of of "dip" or tourque limiting factor. Which am not entirely surprised.

P.S. You lose points for not labeling your axis.
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Old 08-23-2007, 08:33 AM   #3
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This is speculatory since the descriptor table is not decoded yet......but is should be----- RPM up the Right, The Z access should be air volume and the y axis is unknown but beleived to be throttle demand/position.


Yes they all have a "dip" on the right but look at the overall level on the Z access and how the maps taper off up and down the scales to see what I am talking about.
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Old 08-23-2007, 08:35 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-kid View Post
All maps look like that have some kind of of "dip" or tourque limiting factor. Which am not entirely surprised.

P.S. You lose points for not labeling your axis.
Actually I think "the dip" is due to the turbo's lack of continued high flow enough @ higher RPMs more so that ECU limitations.
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Old 08-23-2007, 08:52 AM   #5
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From conversations I have had with 2 seperate "professional" tuners they have both confirmed that on the Automatic there is a definite torque limit in the ECU. Now is this the right place to find it maybe not.... Thats why we are deconstructing the monsters and puzzles over at ECUPROJECT.com
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehayes01 View Post
From conversations I have had with 2 seperate "professional" tuners they have both confirmed that on the Automatic there is a definite torque limit in the ECU. Now is this the right place to find it maybe not.... Thats why we are deconstructing the monsters and puzzles over at ECUPROJECT.com
I understand that I have registered just haven't signed-up due to lack of equipment to get rolling.

I am thinking however a simple flow graph of the stock turbo will tell you if it's the ECU truly holding it back or the turbo's efficiency range.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:06 AM   #7
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Thats why we are deconstructing the monsters and puzzles over at ECUPROJECT.com

Ha ha, there's nothing like casually slipping in a little plug here and there...
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:19 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by liketheword View Post
I understand that I have registered just haven't signed-up due to lack of equipment to get rolling.

I am thinking however a simple flow graph of the stock turbo will tell you if it's the ECU truly holding it back or the turbo's efficiency range.
Here's a 15G chart (good luck finding a 15T chart). A good running 2.0L B205R is going to use somewhere in the neighborhood of 330-350 cfm at 1 bar (2.0 PR) and 6000 rpm. A 2.3 would be more like 370-390. Although that's just calculated, and assuming a bunch of efficiencies.

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Old 08-23-2007, 11:43 AM   #9
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Rows and columns are 15 x 19? Does that seem odd?
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:55 AM   #10
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They are actually listed as 16x20 or if you use Drew's XDF for tuner pro they are 16x16.
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:57 AM   #11
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And keep in mind that the 16x20 was an automap discovery and the 16x16 was Drew painstakingly searching for bytes and patterns.
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:48 PM   #12
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Oh that makes sense now. Good job guys. I have been working on t5 a little and will post up some results in a little bit.
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Old 08-23-2007, 06:05 PM   #13
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Sweet look forward to seeing the T5 stuff.
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Old 08-24-2007, 10:08 AM   #14
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Actually I think "the dip" is due to the turbo's lack of continued high flow enough @ higher RPMs more so that ECU limitations.

Bingo! You get the prize... The smaller turbos will gain torque to a point and depending on how high and hard the turbo is pushed, will then fall off some as is seen in the graphs...

Now a larger gt3071 or gt3076 will pull farther into the rpm band before it dips or falls back...

John
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Old 08-24-2007, 10:48 AM   #15
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Yes the turbo has a relationship to the torque map but what I am talking about has little to do with that.


I am commenting on where the car statrs to build power and is it always on vs. slower rise etc.....



Look at the B205L and see that it does not start making power until it gets well into the REV's (the Y access at the bottom). Where as the B235's and the B205R see power very early on in the RPM range.


However there may be other factors to this equation as well that we have not discovered yet.
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Old 08-24-2007, 10:57 AM   #16
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edit: Steve beat me to it. This is response is for JohnW.

Well, not exactly... Keep in mind that (if this is torque request, still need to confirm positively), the Z direction of the graph would result in a wastegate control signal that's sent to control the wastegate position.

The control system doesn't know or care what the flow charasteristics and efficiencies of the turbo are. This is requested action to the wastgate, not a graph of compressor flow.

This graph needs to be matched to the flow capabilities of the turbo to keep the turbo running in it's efficiency island. Take a look at the 15G map above, Pressure Ratio (PR) is calculated by taking (Manifold Pressure+Atmospheric Pressure)/Atmospheric Pressure. So if you're at sea level and you're running 1 bar of boost (14.7 psi), you get

14.7+14.7=29.4

29.4/14.7=2.0 PR.

You could modifiy a map to essentially keep the wastgate closed all the time, which could maybe momentarily spike your boost to 28 psi at low rpms (when the CFM's are low), but then you'd be looking at a PR of 2.9 while you're not moving much volume, say around 250 CFM and two bad things happen:

1. You're very close to the surge limit of the compressor, where the turbo is trying to move more volume than the engine can take at the time, and
2. You're further outside of the efficient areas where your turbo is designed to operate (the inner circles of the map), so you're directly adding heat to your charge air early in the rpms, which takes power away later in the rpm range and gives a huge torque spike down low that's bad for your transmission.

That's why it's stupid to run high PSI's on a turbo if it's not designed to do it efficiently.
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Old 08-24-2007, 12:04 PM   #17
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does t7 also us e the throttle plate to control torque request?
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Old 08-24-2007, 12:19 PM   #18
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does t7 also us e the throttle plate to control torque request?
It calculates an air mass demand, uses the throttle plate, and then adds turbo as necessary to meet requested demand.

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Old 08-24-2007, 12:37 PM   #19
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It calculates an air mass demand, uses the throttle plate, and then adds turbo as necessary to meet requested demand.

So it looks like the demand # needs to be changed thus manipulating the throttle plate and dumping in more turbo. Is that what you are driving at?
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Old 08-24-2007, 12:38 PM   #20
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There is the question of the broader power and torque band of the 2.3 motor vs the 2.0 motor too. I have noticed on my comparisons the 2.3 motor will bring my torque up earlier and hold it longer, but the 2.0 will spike higher and hold it less long... 2.0 is more of a peaky power band....

I like the torque to spike up a bit and that is what a huge ic and w/m injection is for...

Sqr and others have been giving customers those spikes for years, some people just like the way it feels, even if it does rob some top end later in the power band.

I found while racing, and my car spikes like crazy to 30psi and then falls back to 26psi to about 5700rpm in third gear that I could go faster by keeping the car in the meat of the torque than I could by keeping the rpms up high above 5500rpm where even the gt3071 64ar does not work very well....

Even with low boost settings and no big torque spike, the turbo still loses its steam by around 5700rpm in third gear. Vigge noted this too and from what he is seeing, the larger .86 ar turbine housing gets him good power all the way up to 6200rpm....

Just imagine what the little tdo4 is trying to do...

John

Shifting at 5700rpm seemed to be the best point for quickest et in my car.

John
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