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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 07-17-2007, 02:44 PM   #1
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Unhappy Viggen

I have been trying to get the car running 100%

For months the car ran rich, strong but rich and sometimes inconsistant boost. I know the air filter could use a charge. A smoke test might be helpful.

Anyway I called Nick and he said the .85 gap on my plugs wasnt right and to gap them to 1.0. So I put in fresh plugs gapped to 1.0.

Car felt good then blew the BPV off in 2nd gear. I played with that and got it snug.

Since then the car has had a horrible misfire/hesitation in wot 3-5th gear. I am not getting a CEL. I am not sure what detination feels like or if its only something you hear maybe thats it. But its BAD, it feels like a missfire to me.

I am thinking its the DI. Perhaps the new plugs with correct gap showed anything that was failing in the DI more so.

I wish I had a CEL. Can a DI cause a missfire without throwing a CEL? I wish I had a tech 2
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Old 07-17-2007, 02:46 PM   #2
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I bet its the original pistons. Do a compression test.
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Old 07-17-2007, 02:47 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jameson View Post
I have been trying to get the car running 100%

For months the car ran rich, strong but rich and sometimes inconsistant boost. I know the air filter could use a charge. A smoke test might be helpful.

Anyway I called Nick and he said the .85 gap on my plugs wasnt right and to gap them to 1.0. So I put in fresh plugs gapped to 1.0.

Car felt good then blew the BPV off in 2nd gear. I played with that and got it snug.

Since then the car has had a horrible misfire/hesitation in wot 3-5th gear. I am not getting a CEL. I am not sure what detination feels like or if its only something you hear maybe thats it. But its BAD, it feels like a missfire to me.

I am thinking its the DI. Perhaps the new plugs with correct gap showed anything that was failing in the DI more so.

I wish I had a CEL. Can a DI cause a missfire without throwing a CEL? I wish I had a tech 2
Yup. A CEL for misfire is only displayed after so many misfires in a row. Bitch ain't it. Find somebody to swap a DI with and see if its any better.



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Old 07-17-2007, 03:00 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Tweek's Turbos View Post
I bet its the original pistons. Do a compression test.
Umm no.

Car ran fine, swapped the plugs went wot felt the missfire and backed off.
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:05 PM   #5
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if its a hesitation, I suggest turning to the TB. My wife's 2002 9-5 had a hesitation/surge problem that I finally narrowed down to the TB this weekend (as with you, no CELs).....i looked at the obvious stuff first as you are: spark plugs, DI, fuel filter, air filter, etc. Turns out one of the two TPS in the TB was on the fritz and was confusing the ECU as to where the throttle position actually was. I had an extra TB that I bought over 2 years ago off eBay for $65 knowing that I'd need one some day for my Viggen....sure enough, problem resolved....gotta love the eBay specials!! Once the old TB was off I ran thru the spec checks in the WIS with a multi-meter, I was able to pin point the issue to one of the TPS....gotta hand it to Saab for intergating a $50 sensor into a $400(new) TB and not allow you to just replace the sensor...great way to turn a profit.

Also, if you have a OBDII sensor monitor, monitor the throttle position and then watch it for when the car hestiates and you should see an erratic blip in the throttle position numbers....this is how I got myself pointed to the path of the TB


Finally, a consistant mis-fire will throw a CEL
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Last edited by perkj; 07-17-2007 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:25 PM   #6
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A catalyst damaging misfire will flash the CEL, a non damaging misfire will set a code and turn on the CEL.

I'd be interested to see what your Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT) looks like. It's a value on any generic scan tool with data stream capabilities which denotes how much fuel the PCM is trying to put into or take out of the fuel calculation. LTFT is changed by the values of Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) which are drawn from the 02 sensor readings. If you're consistently running rich, it sounds like a fuel calculation problem to me. Did you say that you put "universal" 02 sensors in the car in a previous thread?
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:30 PM   #7
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I was using my spare DI for a while. I got the occasional missfire this spring.... then it went away. Then on some hot days last month the CEL would stay on after I started the car and threw a misfire code. I put back my original DI and all is fine so far.
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perkj View Post
if its a hesitation, I suggest turning to the TB. My wife's 2002 9-5 had a hesitation/surge problem that I finally narrowed down to the TB this weekend (as with you, no CELs).....i looked at the obvious stuff first as you are: spark plugs, DI, fuel filter, air filter, etc. Turns out one of the two TPS in the TB was on the fritz and was confusing the ECU as to where the throttle position actually was. I had an extra TB that I bought over 2 years ago off eBay for $65 knowing that I'd need one some day for my Viggen....sure enough, problem resolved....gotta love the eBay specials!! Once the old TB was off I ran thru the spec checks in the WIS with a multi-meter, I was able to pin point the issue to one of the TPS....gotta hand it to Saab for intergating a $50 sensor into a $400(new) TB and not allow you to just replace the sensor...great way to turn a profit.

Also, if you have a OBDII sensor monitor, monitor the throttle position and then watch it for when the car hestiates and you should see an erratic blip in the throttle position numbers....this is how I got myself pointed to the path of the TB


Finally, a consistant mis-fire will throw a CEL

I thought about this too.

After calling Nick he thought it was a bad gas or DI issue.

I drove it again after he told me to reset the ecu. It almost does feel like a bad gas issue. The car behaves normal under partial load and part throttle. WOT sees a nice pegging of the boost and then this surging/bucking and I think I heard a backfire out of the exhaust pipe. The first time I hit 17lbs of boost and thought it felt almost like fuel cut. That leads me to believe it could be fuel. I can't find my spare DI since my father moved it.


But what you discribed with the TB could be as well since it happens under a specific amount of throttle(tps issue=tb issue from what you said).

But then again, this all started happening after I filled up with my current tank of gas.
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalvinr11 View Post
A catalyst damaging misfire will flash the CEL, a non damaging misfire will set a code and turn on the CEL.

I'd be interested to see what your Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT) looks like. It's a value on any generic scan tool with data stream capabilities which denotes how much fuel the PCM is trying to put into or take out of the fuel calculation. LTFT is changed by the values of Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) which are drawn from the 02 sensor readings. If you're consistently running rich, it sounds like a fuel calculation problem to me. Did you say that you put "universal" 02 sensors in the car in a previous thread?
The running rich seemed to disappear with the new plugs. I would set the SID to instant and see nice numbers in the 30's again.

I do have universal 02's and it does worry me but I have had them for 25k miles with no probs.
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jameson View Post
The running rich seemed to disappear with the new plugs. I would set the SID to instant and see nice numbers in the 30's again.

I do have universal 02's and it does worry me but I have had them for 25k miles with no probs.
The SID have instant display? I haven't been able to do that on my 9-3 like I could my 9000. All I can access is the average values and I have the SID 3.



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Old 07-17-2007, 03:41 PM   #11
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Car felt good then blew the BPV off in 2nd gear. I played with that and got it snug.(
re-reading this, I'd check to make sure your BPV is still good after blowing it off.....it may not be holding under full boost and dumping the boost . Simple vaccum test is all thats needed.....if it doesn't hold vaccum, its bad
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:42 PM   #12
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if the universal o2 sensor is soldered in correctly, it should not be a problem, but saabs for some reason are very picky about their rear o2 sensor signal. Personally, I'd replace the both of them with correct units and see how it responds. Tweek is not wrong about suggesting a compression test... it's a good thing to check and takes about 5 minutes. doubtful that the pistons are a problem, but something like a crack in one of them could potentially cause the problems you describe, and is about 10 times more likely on THAT car than it is on say... a C-900.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:10 PM   #13
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Do you have an up dated T-7 box?
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:10 PM   #14
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Do you have an up dated T-7 box?
Wouldn't that have been taken care of by his Nordic tune or was the update something else other than the maps in the software.



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Old 07-17-2007, 04:15 PM   #15
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I meant Nordic, When I put the Nordic box in my car I noticed a rich running condition under full throttle. It was explained to me that it was normal as they were using the extra fuel to cool the tops of the pistons. Mabey the wider gap is causing the missfire and you really don't have a problem at all? I know from experience that plug gap is very critical in DI cars and too wide of gap will cause early failures of the DI, such as letting the plug gap get too wide as the plugs wear.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:22 PM   #16
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I meant Nordic, When I put the Nordic box in my car I noticed a rich running condition under full throttle. It was explained to me that it was normal as they were using the extra fuel to cool the tops of the pistons. Mabey the wider gap is causing the missfire and you really don't have a problem at all? I know from experience that plug gap is very critical in DI cars and too wide of gap will cause early failures of the DI, such as letting the plug gap get too wide as the plugs wear.
I have had a Nordic tune for 20k miles, the running rich has been recent.

The only change I made was the gap....then got a new tank of gas. Nick assures me the gap is correct. I went to pick up some parts at the dealer and the tech made a face when I told him the gap was 1.0, he thought that was huge.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:25 PM   #17
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re-reading this, I'd check to make sure your BPV is still good after blowing it off.....it may not be holding under full boost and dumping the boost . Simple vaccum test is all thats needed.....if it doesn't hold vaccum, its bad
The BPV didnt blow all the way off, the hose backed itself off and created a vac leak. It was due to the blue silicone hose that came with my Cobra pipe being 1/2" too long. It forced the BPV to pull the delivery pipe nipple to the side. I took the hose off and trimmed it and now it sits better.

I really think this is something simple like bad gas, DI, or TB. I only changes are plug gap and gas. Perhaps the plug gap is now correct and showed the weakness in my current DI.

I have 180 miles on this tank but I worry that putting in some new gas wouldnt dilute bad gas enough and that I should burn up this tank first.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
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The BPV didnt blow all the way off, the hose backed itself off and created a vac leak. It was due to the blue silicone hose that came with my Cobra pipe being 1/2" too long. It forced the BPV to pull the delivery pipe nipple to the side. I took the hose off and trimmed it and now it sits better.

I really think this is something simple like bad gas, DI, or TB. I only changes are plug gap and gas. Perhaps the plug gap is now correct and showed the weakness in my current DI.

I have 180 miles on this tank but I worry that putting in some new gas wouldnt dilute bad gas enough and that I should burn up this tank first.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you supposed to run a somewhat smaller gap than the stock 1.0mm when you have more boost than stock with software seeing as it becomes increasingly difficult for the spark to jump as cylinder pressure increases. Therefor giving you a misfire under full boost. I'm not meaning to discredit Nick but I've seen that being said all over the place on TSN.



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Old 07-17-2007, 04:44 PM   #19
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I had .85 ever since I have been doing my own plugs. Nick told me to go with 1.0 instead.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:50 PM   #20
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just to clarify, you are running a 1.0mm gap, not a .100 inch gap right? cause most gapping tools are primarily in inches, and that can lead to confusion, .100 is a big big gap. do you not have a spare DI that you could use to check it? seems like everyone should have a spare DI on hand at all times...

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