Head porting - DONE! Block balancing and rebuild - DONE! - The Saab Link Forums

Go Back   The Saab Link Forums > Saab NG900 '94-'98 and 9-3 '99-'02 Forum > Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3

Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

SaabLink.net is the premier Saab Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-20-2004, 04:18 PM   #1
SAAB Road Master
 
KevinY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Jose, CA USA
Posts: 316
Head porting - DONE! Block balancing and rebuild - DONE!

OK, now that I have found out that a number of you guys are tracking the '97 Talladega project that we have named "Hot Wasaabi", I will make some posts here to keep you up to date. The latest on the engine work is that the head is back from being ported by a friend of mine (to remain unnamed) and the block is back from a complete balance and freshening with piston rings, new bearings, wrist pins, crank bolts, etc (you get the picture). Interesting thing is that the exhaust side had the biggest improvements. My friend says that the Saab heads (later 2.0 and 2.3) have a great design and rank right with BMW design from the factory. They might even be better in that you can actually repair a Saab head, but the bimmer ones have some strange alloy mixed with the aluminum that makes them difficult to weld (all aluminum has some metals mix, just different recipes). Here is a great pic of the head - looks like ice. There are some graphs on the web page also. So, you guys out there that think I am full of S&^%, then hang on to your shorts when I hit the 450 goal. Otherwise, I owe alot of people a beer! Now, I just have to wait for those damn parts for come from Sweden. Have you ever heard of a Swedish minute? When you want unique, custom things done right it takes time and patience which I often run short on.



KevinY is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-20-2004, 04:33 PM   #2
Elder
 
BurnsSide42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: South Eastern PA
Posts: 10,049
I was just reading all that on your site - looks good, realy good. Can't wait to see how it all turns out. I am following this project no doubt. Wish I had the time and money to do this. I am going to be building up an 89 SPG shortly myself - just not so Hi-tech. Basic mods compared to yours. Excellent job so far!
__________________
Original TSL Founding Member - ADMIN
Check out
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for your repair needs
BurnsSide42 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-20-2004, 05:38 PM   #3
Administrator
Avid TSL User
 
turbosb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: THE Purdue University
Posts: 253
Send a message via AIM to turbosb
Hey Kevin welcome!!! Its great to have you here. A lot of us have been watching your project and I think I speak for everyone when I say that I can't wait for your car to be finished. It will show the rest of the community how great saabs are! Please keep us informed on the progress!!!

Kyle
__________________
If it's got tits, wheels or a badge it's nothing but trouble, and is gonna cost you money.
turbosb is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2004, 08:06 PM   #4
Elder
 
rcmdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Erie, PA
Posts: 2,646
Yeah welcome to the site! I am a big fan! I love what you did with the hood and custom raised viggen spoiler! We'd love to buy some of that stuff!!
__________________
Rob
Swedish Performance
1995 Saab 900S - 2.3L DOHC N/A 150K

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rcmdesign is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-20-2004, 08:14 PM   #5
Elder
 
BurnsSide42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: South Eastern PA
Posts: 10,049
so sorry i didn't say this sooner - I kinda took to you so fast I forgot to say welcome! So WELCOME to the site and glad to have you aboard. Your knowledge will be well appriciated in all due time. Enjoy yourself here and maybe we can get a SaabLink decal for your project car as a gift when it's all done :P
__________________
Original TSL Founding Member - ADMIN
Check out
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for your repair needs
BurnsSide42 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-20-2004, 08:42 PM   #6
HNNLIC
Elder
 
Blaque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Washington, D.C. / Kansas City
Posts: 4,209
Send a message via ICQ to Blaque Send a message via AIM to Blaque Send a message via MSN to Blaque Send a message via Yahoo to Blaque
Kevin, great to have you. I personally review your site almost daily because I feel you actually put some great ideas into that Saab, that many of us only thought of doing.

I definately hope to see some parts sold that you used on your Talladega.
__________________
Virtualization FTW. IT 4 Life.

“Brothers and sisters… and friends…and I see some enemies. In fact, I think we’d be fooling ourselves if we had an audience this large, and didn’t realize that there were.. some enemies present.” –Malcolm X


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Blaque is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-20-2004, 08:55 PM   #7
SAAB Road Master
 
SaabTuner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern California (Near LA)
Posts: 361
I love that flow data. Great stuff!

You can also see how well the stock head was tuned from that data. The stock lift is somewhere around .34" ... when actually moving throught he rev-band, becuase of the nature of hydraulic lifters, the actual lift is around .30 ... and you can see that the stock head flows very well in that region!

Is that a Trionic 5 or Trionic 7 head? According to Heuschmid Tuning (and other tuners) the T7 head flows even better than the T5 head (which already flows quite well).

Any idea what sort of cam specs you'll be using?

Adrian~
__________________
\"Remember, you can live in your car, but you can\'t race your house.\"
SaabTuner is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 03:46 AM   #8
SAAB Road Master
 
SaabTuner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern California (Near LA)
Posts: 361
I suppose you're done with headwork, but here's a thought for your next project.

When porting the heads, the valve guides can be recessed into the head. They cause significant turbulence which can make a very large difference in flow (10% or higher) ...

... here's an example of what I mean. (The picture is of ylee from SaabScene's 2.3L Monster Aero'smonster port job.):




Compared with yours. (Rotated 180 degrees for comparison.)


__________________
\"Remember, you can live in your car, but you can\'t race your house.\"
SaabTuner is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 04:27 AM   #9
Moderator
Elder
 
Tweek's Turbos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 10,303
Send a message via AIM to Tweek's Turbos
Glad to have you Kevin,

I have a spare T5 head out right now, I am going to email this thread to the shop.

Are you having custom cams ground? I am planning on using 2.3 NA cams for my car.

When you flowed it, forgive me for not knowing, are the cams used? If so was it with the stock 2.0 cams?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delorean
- pretend you are watering delicate plants...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAABseanSCANIA
can be prone to failure due to increased localized stresses in the hole penetrations
Tweek's Turbos is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 09:29 AM   #10
SAAB Road Master
 
KevinY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Jose, CA USA
Posts: 316
Hey guys,

I will have to look into the recessed guides next time around, but a good idea. As far as the cams, we can hit the target running STOCK cams. Frank is running this setup in his 9-3SS race car right now hitting 475 plus so my estimate of 450 is actually somewhat conservative and I have some tricks that Frank cannot run on his because of rules and regulations. I am definitely looking forward to completing this car because it will be unlike anything I have seen over here (this side of Sweden) before. I was already starting to look at what the next project car will be as this one comes to a close. Once all the press shoots (e.g., European Car) are done, I am going to sell this car like I have done with all previous project cars. I have starting working with a local Saab Indy shop to provide performance solutions.

As far as bringing the things that I have developed for this car to market, it has actually be very difficult. Most of the people that I have explored the idea with are either not interested because they may be unsure of demand or have something similar in development themselves. So, we will have to see what actually pans out. I am not in it to start sell volume parts myself, but enjoy building the cars and doing the R&D. So, we will see. I am definitely not going to let this hood escape without at least making a mold before I ship the car off to the new owner whoever that may be.

Regards,
Kevin
KevinY is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 12:36 PM   #11
Elder
 
BurnsSide42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: South Eastern PA
Posts: 10,049
You should dig up an old SPG and build one of those up Fit in a 2.3T into a c900 - now that would be sweet. I do not think anyones ever done that before - and the demand for the knowledge of how to do that is desired.
Or do what you've just done on this ng - but to a 9000 Aero or CSE from 95-98 model years. That would prove to be a really nice car too when done.
__________________
Original TSL Founding Member - ADMIN
Check out
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for your repair needs
BurnsSide42 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 01:07 PM   #12
SAAB Road Master
 
SaabTuner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern California (Near LA)
Posts: 361
Something you should note about the camshafts though.

With your valve job there will be little gain in flow with the stock cams because they only have .34" of valve lift. According to your flow results that won't be your new head's "sweet spot" ...

But very little head modification is necessary to achieve 450 hp. If you were shooting for 800 like the Hillclimb's 2.0 ... then you'd need upgraded cams.

Unless you plan a 7K+ redline, upgraded cams aren't particularly affective.

However I highly reccomend an equal length header setup. If you can arrange it, you can also have the headers designed for a twin-scroll turbo. However, if you do so, most shops won't know exactly how to do that. It's a very neat trick that helps in spool up, but it's not very well known.

The trick is to get the exhaust pulses even between the two scroll chambers. And to seperate the cyllinders into two sets of two.

To get the exhaust pulses spaced evenly on a Saab engine, cyllinders 2 and 3 would enter into one scroll, and 1 and 4 into the other. To illustrate what I mean:

(the number is the cyllinder the exhaust pulse came from, remember that exhaust pulses drive the turbine more than latent pressure. Utilizing their velocity pressure reduces the static backpressure on the exhaust ports)

Saab firing order is 1,3,4,2, so in an equal length header setup that is the order the exhaust pulses will approach the turbo.

A B
O O <---- scroll port
1 - ^
- 3 |
4 - |
- 2 |
1 - |
- 3 |
4 - |
- 2 |

^
| ----- Movement of exhaust pulses towards turbo exhaust inlet.


See how the spacing of the pulses is even? Making them evenly spaced significantly reduces the chance for reversion, and improves spool up. Seperating the pulses into two scroll ports in a twin scroll also reduces pulse wave interference and improves spool up as well.

To quote from hugh MacInnes "Turbochargers" book (I highly reccomend you read it if you haven't already.): "... he found that after dividing the headers up so that the exhaust pulses entered the scrolls evenly boost 'lag' was all but gone."


Equal length headers will get close to the spool of twin scroll. But if you're looking for the car to stand out, even if people don't really know how it works, the words "twin scroll" have a bling factor all their own. The fact that it's functional will only serve to REALLY impress those who've been doing turbochargers for a long time.

Adrian~

p.s. You can run a higher EGT by ceramic coating the pistons, exhaust valves and ports, exhaust manifold, and turbine. An engine that can survive a higher EGT can make more power on any particular grade of fuel. The pressure curve can be made much "fatter" when tuning. It will also allow the parts to survive for longer periods.

Just a thought. Might be worth looking into for the next project as well.

Great stuff.
__________________
\"Remember, you can live in your car, but you can\'t race your house.\"
SaabTuner is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 03:16 PM   #13
SAAB Road Master
 
KevinY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Jose, CA USA
Posts: 316
Ya, I am with you on the split pulse headers and am already in the know about the concepts involved. The header was made by the same guy that made the Pikes Peak car and it should be both equal length and split pulse. So, I would get a double word score for that one!

Furtunately, since we are "only" going for 450 hp, it leaves room for inperfections or "range performance slack" in the design. That means that we do not have to head the bullseye to score.

BurnsSide42 had mentioned doing a C900 or 9000. Well, I already did the 9000 thing and would only repeat on a customers car. As for the C900, I actually drive a C900 turbo convertible as my daily mule, so I know it well. But, as far as project cars, it does not really do it for me. I get a little more excited about doing a 9-3SS or 9-5. So, there you have it. Did some work on custom brackets for the positive battery terminal in the engine bay now that the battery is in the hatch area and finished up a bracket for the kill switch for the battery today. Nothing exciting, but pretty cool and as always, will post pics soon. Also, finished up the mounting tubes for the CO2 bottle and polished the rear X-brace (man, that thing looks sweet). I will lay down a clear powder coat on the brackets and the braces tonight and finish attaching the brake booster and steering column. I should setup a web cam so that folks could see what I am doing real time, but then again I don't think people want to watch me throwing tools around when nothing ever fits as planned. O'well, stay tuned to Yankton Tuned.

Later,
Kevin
KevinY is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 03:31 PM   #14
Elder
 
BurnsSide42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: South Eastern PA
Posts: 10,049
How about a 9-5 Aero Wagon - those can be really sick - and for sure a wagon would be a sleeper.... :P I forgot you had done the 9000 - I was focusing on the ng and forgot.
__________________
Original TSL Founding Member - ADMIN
Check out
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for your repair needs
BurnsSide42 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 03:35 PM   #15
Admin
Elder
 
snow4_1man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,170
Send a message via AIM to snow4_1man
Wow Kevin that’s awesome. When are you going to be done with the headers? Also are you doing a custom exhaust, with downpipe or making a flange to fit your turbo so it bolts on?

Also it seams like you have a very good team of people behind you from your welder with the guy from Pikes Peak and also the guy that did your porting.

Hey forget the cam; we should have you on Spike TV with Kevin’s performance garage as the show. We need some Saab tuning shows. That would be sick; anyway it’s nice to have you here instead of rebounding with emails. Awesome work
__________________
98 900 SE Nordic Stage 3 Deer Killer - RIP
03 9-3 SS - Sold
85 900 SPG - Turned Dune buggy - Gave away
99 LTB Vig - Awesome Rally Crash! - RIP
99 LTB Vig - Sold


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
snow4_1man is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 03:39 PM   #16
SAAB Road Master
 
SaabTuner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern California (Near LA)
Posts: 361
Kevin you're the first person I've ever talked to who already knows what a split pulse header is.

Nice to talk to people who actually ... know stuff ... now and again.

Ever read some of the PhD dissertations from Linkoping University on Ionization Gap sensing? You can calculate everything from MBT, to EGT, to Torque from the ionization trace. And all Trionic Saabs already use the system to detect knock. The guys at Linkoping actually use a Saab engine as a testbed. Way cool.

Adrian~
__________________
\"Remember, you can live in your car, but you can\'t race your house.\"
SaabTuner is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 04:06 PM   #17
SAAB Road Master
 
KevinY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Jose, CA USA
Posts: 316
Hey Adrian, as sick as this sounds, I think that I actually read that paper on ionazation. There is also a cool early write-up on the benefits of water injection out there but I cannot recall the name. I like to think I know a little but I will never claim to "know it all" because I think you then close yourself off to new ideas. Every now and then someone hits me with a "did you think of ..." and I say to myself "thats a really cool idea." I am not beyond giving credit to the person also since I am about application, not the credit. People do alot of "what if'ing" and I say lets just try it and see what happens, provided it has a strong probability of success and is reasonable. Anyway, enought of that.

In regards to the wagon, the lines on the "estate" don't really do it for me either. I have seen a few sedans that

Later,
Kevin
KevinY is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 04:21 PM   #18
SAAB Road Master
 
SaabTuner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern California (Near LA)
Posts: 361
The Linkoping paper I was referring to has both.

It uses the feedback method of ionization tracing to show that the flame development angle on the mass fraction burned profile was just a little lower with water injection and that ignition could be advanced futher without passing MBT.

I think they showed around a 5% increase in torque? Without any other tuning. (The real benefit to water injection is in reducing knock sensitivity.) Something like that.

You'd probably recognize it by the unique method used for matching pressure curves to the Ionization Traces. They used the sum of two Gaussian (Bell) curves and a least squares method to fit.

Awesome stuff ... and I wish I lived closer to San Jose so I could watch this all go down. I live down near LA though, so it'd be a fair bit of driving.

Adrian~

p.s. I have that paper on my computer, but more than willing to share it with you. I could probably get some of the formulas to work if you were able to rig up a current tracer ... you could make a continuously self tuning ECU with it. That'd be way sick!
__________________
\"Remember, you can live in your car, but you can\'t race your house.\"
SaabTuner is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 06:31 PM   #19
Elder
 
rcmdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Erie, PA
Posts: 2,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
It uses the feedback method of ionization tracing to show that the flame development angle on the mass fraction burned profile was just a little lower with water injection...
Of course! I knew that
__________________
Rob
Swedish Performance
1995 Saab 900S - 2.3L DOHC N/A 150K

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rcmdesign is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2004, 09:15 PM   #20
HNNLIC
Elder
 
Blaque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Washington, D.C. / Kansas City
Posts: 4,209
Send a message via ICQ to Blaque Send a message via AIM to Blaque Send a message via MSN to Blaque Send a message via Yahoo to Blaque
Topic trimmed. Any problems let me know.
__________________
Virtualization FTW. IT 4 Life.

“Brothers and sisters… and friends…and I see some enemies. In fact, I think we’d be fooling ourselves if we had an audience this large, and didn’t realize that there were.. some enemies present.” –Malcolm X


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Blaque is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Saab Link Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Vehicle Info.
Enter your vehicle information (year, model, mods)
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
All content is copyright © The Saab Link and it's original authors.


 

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.