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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Old 04-27-2015, 03:38 PM   #1
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indexing black dekas

i am reading about indexing black deka injectors. can anyone describe this and how to do it? ive been searching all evening now and no one describes it.
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Old 04-27-2015, 07:00 PM   #2
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i am reading about indexing black deka injectors. can anyone describe this and how to do it? ive been searching all evening now and no one describes it.
There's no adjustment that I know of to "index" injectors in these cars. Afaik it's some nonsense jzw blabs to explain poor tuning.
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First T7 19T turbo setup. First T7 Deka 80lb. injector setup.
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Old 04-27-2015, 10:15 PM   #3
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There's no adjustment that I know of to "index" injectors in these cars. Afaik it's some nonsense jzw blabs to explain poor tuning.
I too was initially flummoxed upon finding that the injectors had no means of adjusting them. However, what this means is the the injectors have four nozzles that look like this ::
The point of indexing the injectors is such that two nozzles spray directly on the back of each valve. To do this, you need to rotate the injectors on the fuel rail while off the engine, such that the nozzles squarely face each valve back and not the septum in between them. Basically, the :: need to be at right angles to the fuel rails, or perpendicular. Mark them with paint and then install.
This is a big deal, especially at cold start and idle conditions and partial throttle, light load driving.
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Old 04-28-2015, 03:24 PM   #4
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The injector clips only engage properly when the injector plugs are 90 degrees to the fuel rail, so unless you rotate the nozzles inside the injectors there's no adjustment if you want the clips to engage correctly.

I've never "indexed" an injector and never had any issues. Maybe I'm just lucky? Regardless, even at low air speeds, I'm just not convinced that there isn't enough velocity to cause effective distribution regardless of orientation
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First T7 19T turbo setup. First T7 Deka 80lb. injector setup.

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Old 05-04-2015, 06:10 AM   #5
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been running dekas (in my built 9000aero) for 8+years now and have not "indexed" them.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:46 PM   #6
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Right, I have removed the clips. I would advise it based on ECUproject consensus.
YMMV
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:25 PM   #7
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Right, you must have info then on why the stock injectors aren't "index"-able from the factory?

Perhaps GM didn't want to be bothered with improving idle quality and emissions at idle by simply turning their injectors the "right" way on their global 4 cylinder platform. (After all, the mass of fuel must be equal to what stock injectors provide).

Guess my mileage varies
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First T7 19T turbo setup. First T7 Deka 80lb. injector setup.

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Old 05-06-2015, 07:19 PM   #8
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The nozzles on the stock injectors are all oriented the same way--> :: and thus they don't need to be indexed. This is because bosch/OE actually gave a shit about quality control, and, by virtue of their clips--to which Saab/GM obviously invested a great deal of R&D--they are precisely aligned with the back of each valve. If GM/Saab went to all that effort to align the injectors, presumably for the reasons you stated above,nix sarcasm, then why wouldn't you exert the minimal effort to continue in the footsteps of something already carefully considered?
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Old 05-06-2015, 07:27 PM   #9
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I'm confused, you're saying Bosch quality control is better than Siemens then? As if you have insight into some actual facts regarding nozzle orientation specifications and manufacturing quality control between these two major European ISO 9000 companies? My buddy who runs one of the siemens business units would disagree I think... no need to nix sarcasm there lol--fully intended, as before.

You must be privy to flow, emission, or other evidence showing that having two nozzels pointed more directly towards runner openings while orienting the other two further away provides benefit over, say, a random orientation, with respect to distribution. Anxious to see your test setup and experimentation results supporting your assertion.

In the meantime I'm going continue using the mounting clips that help avoid injector movement and the subsequent gas leaks that lead to under hood fires, while also enjoying amazing idle quality; ymmv.

(BS aside, point being that I don't think anyone knows for sure regarding orientation, and the clips do add an extra layer of protection--you're free to not agree of course)
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Old 05-08-2015, 12:37 AM   #10
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Iso9001 is actually a quality management paradigm and not specific to any one part. If nozzle location was not a "quality" item for Siemens then it is not under the purview of 9001. That is neither here nor there. Look, at this point this discussion is fringing on sophist, perhaps even specious. I can tell you that every_single_one of the OE injectors I've pulled off the the maybe 30 saabs I've looked at has the perfectly aligned ::, not a diamond, not cockeyed, not sorta-kind, no, DEAD STRAIGHT up and down. Perfectly in unison with alignment clips. But, no, I am not privy to manufacturing/compliance at either of the two companies.
In some T5 documentation there is a sub section on indexing the injectors..I couldn't find it in the latest release. Dilemma made it abundantly clear that the deka's were a cheaply made injector. Looking at the variance in flow and nozzle orientation I will stand by that to the grave. I had mine flow-matched and I've indexed them as a result. I'm glad your system works without the hairpulling countless others have had before they indexed the injectors. Consensus is that for the weekend tuner, the indexing seems to make a difference.
I am not casting aspersions or shitting on your parade. I'm just trying to help the guy. It is not personal. In fact, as a practicing engineer, I will make a model of a Saab port injection and run C.F.D and post screen shots up, mmkay? If the C.F.D proves me wrong, I will happily cease and desist.
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Old 05-08-2015, 12:38 AM   #11
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Also, https://books.google.com/books?id=Ju...0valve&f=false
If they knew about the virtues of back-of-valve injection in '91, why wouldn't it be a big deal for Saab and us in the new century?
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Old 05-08-2015, 04:24 AM   #12
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Excellent, mmkay then! As it happens I'm a practicing engineering (manager) heading up some fairly large modeling and simulation projects right this moment. Since you offered, I'm anxious to see your approach. Make sure you document your assumptions!

As far as ISO, you know exactly what I meant then and understand how compliance ties-in, good. There are a few questions packaged into my comments: there may or may not be orientation requirements, we don't know, and those targets may or may not be met, we don't know. Seems like a few unknowns there lol.

Anyway, there's no problems tuning Dekas to idle well in T7 for someone who takes their time and knows what they're doing.

And I notice you haven't addressed safety concerns. Why do you suppose the clips are installed from the factory? Just for pretty I guess You seem to have taken the time to have yours oriented a certain way so in theory you could be running clips as designed. Are you running clips then while recommending others to not run them?

Anxiously standing by for your injector modeling and sim thread (I know you were just boasting before, but for real, you'd be doing a favor for the whole community and supplying useful information--the heat affects, vaporization, air velocity, etc. etc. etc. make it a pretty beefy effort I think)

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Originally Posted by Cm452 View Post
Iso9001 is actually a quality management paradigm and not specific to any one part. If nozzle location was not a "quality" item for Siemens then it is not under the purview of 9001. That is neither here nor there. Look, at this point this discussion is fringing on sophist, perhaps even specious. I can tell you that every_single_one of the OE injectors I've pulled off the the maybe 30 saabs I've looked at has the perfectly aligned ::, not a diamond, not cockeyed, not sorta-kind, no, DEAD STRAIGHT up and down. Perfectly in unison with alignment clips. But, no, I am not privy to manufacturing/compliance at either of the two companies.
In some T5 documentation there is a sub section on indexing the injectors..I couldn't find it in the latest release. Dilemma made it abundantly clear that the deka's were a cheaply made injector. Looking at the variance in flow and nozzle orientation I will stand by that to the grave. I had mine flow-matched and I've indexed them as a result. I'm glad your system works without the hairpulling countless others have had before they indexed the injectors. Consensus is that for the weekend tuner, the indexing seems to make a difference.
I am not casting aspersions or shitting on your parade. I'm just trying to help the guy. It is not personal. In fact, as a practicing engineer, I will make a model of a Saab port injection and run C.F.D and post screen shots up, mmkay? If the C.F.D proves me wrong, I will happily cease and desist.
-Cm
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Old 05-08-2015, 10:06 AM   #13
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As another practicing engineer, I can safely say:






But seriously. If you guys want to fire up a copy of Ricardo Wave and mess with this I'd love to see it, but there has got to be published prior research on this already. A co-worker of mine has lots of experience with engine calibration and propane / CNG supplementation and conversion at am OEM level.... he's extremely fond of, "That's plenty good enough!"
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Old 05-08-2015, 10:46 AM   #14
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Also, i think we should clarify what clips we are talking about. There are two, at least, there were two on my T5 car. The first are metal clips which hold the injector into the fuel rail, and which mate with a slot molded into the injector body. The second is a strip of plastic blocks which ensure the injector's plug is normal to the fuel rail, thus establishing the ::, with each pair spraying onto the back of each valve.
I have Solidworks and the CFD is not very good. I am not even sure gasoline is a listed fluid. I might be able to download some other hydrocarbon. We'll see. But I will run it and even the hobbyist should be able to determine whether or not a problem would ensue.
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Old 05-08-2015, 01:00 PM   #15
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Bad models are worse than no models because they lead to false results and ultimately poor decision making.

In this case, hammering out the air movement characteristics with certainty with respect to the combustion cycle, valve movement/velocity and pressure changes/etc, isn't trivial, then to factor heat losses, then phase changes, then establishing baselines to demonstrate combustion improvements?

Subscribed here for sure. How long do you anticipate it'll take you? I'm going to get some popcorn
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Old 05-08-2015, 02:00 PM   #16
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Don't forget compressible, probably-detached, turbulent flow...
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Old 05-08-2015, 03:35 PM   #17
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Don't forget compressible, probably-detached, turbulent flow...
For sure. But what do you want? I typed that while I was pumping gas lol.

As an aside, unrelated to this conversation, I had to call a guy I know who coincidentally also just got back from some training on M&S tools that can handle chemical reactions as well as mechanical considerations...and he laughed.

First when I told him I was arguing on the internet, and second when I described the overall system.

My guess is that we're all going to have the pleasure of watching Cm452 achieve a first or second, maybe third Doctorate in modeling and simulation. All right here on Saablink lol.

Cm452, to your question about which clips: The clips I'm referring-to are the same clips that we've been talking about, which are the same clips that hold the injectors in place, which are the same clips that prevent the injectors from being "indexed", which are the very same clips that lock the injector at 90 degrees to the fuel real. Those clips. I'm not sure what other conversation you've been having?
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Old 05-11-2015, 12:08 AM   #18
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First off, I am not modeling the cylinder. I am just going to model the runner and cylinder head--one, single instance. Second, I have run into roadblocks because designing the pintle and spray-angle/convergence cone is proving much more difficult than I had anticipated. Finding this info will require some digging. If it turns out the injector just sputters fuel with abandon, or if the convergence pattern is immediately after the pintle, then we can pack up right now and save me hours on CAD.

Also, like ANY model, it is best to establish a simple proof of concept and then tack on the really chewy stuff. Don't get stuck in analysis paralysis; a simple model will suffice for instantaneous "snapshots" of flow as opposed to enormously complex dynamic variable modelling. Gasoline, at a given temperature, mixing with air at a given temperature, flow-rate, and pressure--whose characteristics are largely built into CAD--will reveal plenty for the scope of this challenge and for the hobbyist.

Crash course on fluid dynamics; turbulence is a function of the Reynolds number, which might only be obtained empirically via testing the intake-tract, unless someone knows an engineer at Saab.
Also, air is typically considered incompressible in terms of modeling when the fluid velocity has a Mach number below 1--this has to do with turbulence and NOT whether or not you can "squeeze" air.
Turbulence, and to what extent, will significantly impact the model.
Also, there is the surface roughness of the intake track, and the loss coefficients of the bends, as well as the radius of the constriction points.

Lastly, I am confused; on my T5 car, there are two clips. The first set are these metal tabs that slide into a recessed grove in the injectors and over the flange on the fuel rail--the injectors may be indexed with these in place. On top of this, there was a black plastic strip to ensure the injectors were facing square. As an additional measure of security, the fuel rail is bolted down. This is to say, between the bolts and the metal tabs, that I think your "safety" logic is spurious.
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Old 05-11-2015, 03:21 AM   #19
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An under hood fuel leak isn't spurious and you're not thinking about it correctly. An injector doesn't have to be literally falling out of the bolted rail to be leaking--it just has to move enough, enough times, to cause an eventual leak. The clips provide another layer of safety as a layered risk mitigation strategy because the consequence in the event of a leak is severe. Keeping clips lowers the likelihood of an event in this case. If you ever have the opportunity sit on a formalized incident investigation or risk assessment team you should do it.

As for the model, you're not thinking about that correctly either, you DO have to model the whole thing because you're asserting that the direction of the pattern affects engine operation. Go re-read what I wrote originally. Valves open and close and the airflow starts/stops into the environment where you're injecting. You don't even know the timing of the air flow movement (aka valve timing) in relation to the injection event duration (because if you did, you'd probably be able to get better idle in the first place). To prove what you're asserting here you'd have to show an improvement in charge air mixing - to a point that it mattered during combustion - and to do that you'd have to know something about the time and heat movement and phase change and velocities, and here's a hint, with respect to crankshaft angle.
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Old 05-11-2015, 12:06 PM   #20
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My injectors have not moved...ever, not once, in 35k of getting-the-shit-kicked-out-of-it driving. Nor have they leaked.
I do not have any idle problems, nor do I have any cold start problems either. You seem to be insinuating that you DO know the movement of the air and its timing relative to the time of injection. If you do, sharing that would enormously help the evolution of this investigation.
Also, another discussion in another forum with better pictures:
Standard motor 380CC injectors - Page 12 - North American Motoring
-Cm
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