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Performance Modifications for the Classic 900 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the Classic 900. This may also include suspension.

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Old 11-03-2006, 07:36 PM   #21
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James P.... I wish you the best, and I truly hope that this is a complete success. If you get to the point that you can produce them affordably, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding buyers. The transmission is THE worst part of the C900, as I'm sure you know, and I think that I speak for a large part of the C900 community in saying that your efforts to help improve that weak link are very much appreciated.

I lost my first 900 to a bad tranny. I can only imagine how nice that car would be if I hadn't been forced to sell it four years ago.
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Old 11-03-2006, 07:40 PM   #22
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One statement to sum this great idea up and those working on it and its from saab.

"Welcome to the state of Independence"



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Old 11-03-2006, 07:47 PM   #23
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one of the primary reasons people "give up" on C-900's is multiple transmission failures. sometimes you get a good one, other times you have 3 shit gearboxes in a row.

there have been several discussions about making a new C-900 gearbox casting out of cast iron, but so far it has never materialized. I really hope this one comes through as a better C-900 gearbox casting is a long time coming.

If you need any help selling them, I'm sure we could arrange something. If you build it, it can be sold, and in good numbers...
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Old 11-03-2006, 07:54 PM   #24
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I don't know enough about the delicate, precise inner workings of a transmission to even have a clue as to whether your venture will fail or succeed, but I wish you all the best. I love seeing people take on challenging projects like this; and even if it doesn't work out, it will be a fabulous learning experience for all involved.

Nahum, you're definitely onto something: this IS the state of Independence.

I say give it a go, and walk with your head high no matter how it turns out. (I'm definitely pulling for you guys though!).
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:41 PM   #25
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anyone with a c900 with any sort of power over stock that drives it properly has broken a trans.

Paul
umm.....if you keep braking transmissions because you drive them "properly", then there is something wrong with your idea of "proper" driving.
You dont have to beat the damn shifter to death like i keep hearing on this board eveytime you shift to get it to go into the right gear. If you figured out, maybe after the 4th trans like you are reffering to, that your driving had something to do with the failure of something on the car, then maybe you would change how you drove it?
This makes sense to me, but it seems like you keep trying the same experiment expecting different results. WHich coincidently is one of the clinical definitions of insanity
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:44 PM   #26
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Yes, it is true. This man has no penis.

I just realized your the one that said Shatner over Stewart.

Unless you want to make me a tubular manifold, shut up.
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:58 PM   #27
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Way to have a small cock dude, I am a senior at Central Washing University majoring in Mechanical Engineering Technology with a special in Manufacturing and minoring in Math.
I have spent the last four years of my college career working in the school foundry pouring Aluminum, Bronze and Iron parts for rebuilt WWI and WWII planes for Century Aviation. I have made various bronze plaques, and decorative sculptures, I have made cast iron pan, hammers and brake drums. Last summer I had an internship at D&L Foundry in Moses lake where I designed patterns for gray iron and ductile iron municipal castings, optimized gating on current patterns using Magma Flow software and Solid Cast, I am currently a consultant for Ballard Brass and Aluminum and Wear Tek (Based out of Spokane, and is a Steel and Iron Foundry).
I know a little about shrink and how to create a pattern (two years running a four axis CNC machine, programming and trouble shooting).
The thermal exp. of the block and the pan will actually be more consistent with Fe than Al, and as far as the considerations SAAB took to make their tranny housing cost was one of the highest. Someone can always make something better but to make it better and cost less is the trick.
The main problem with the current housing is that it is aluminum, and under repeated loading it always fails, it has no endurance limit like iron based alloys.
I don’t know if any of qualifies as “extensive” the site still refers to me as a beginner so please be kind to our idea and maybe try not to shoot down other people who aren’t as confined to convention as yourself.

Thanks
James P.
ok...some of that was a little out of context and i take as a diliberate attack on me.....way to have a small cock dude? for one, how do you know im a dude, second, wtf does that have to do with anything?

My comments were what i like to call, constructive criticism and is what i think is implied in posting ideas like this on a forum like this, to get peoples reactions and concerns, because ultimatly you are marketing to us and as a consumer i want to know what i would be paying for is going to be a good product and not someones half assed attemt at a solution. It was in no way a statement attacking you or your friend as i think i stated and was only my opinion, which i am sure i said that. Im glad that you have experience in casting and making patterns with a cnc because i had no idea who you were and what you knew(i htink i said that also somewhere). Now that i know that you know what you are doing with some things, then i will ask you, why are you planning on making a replica of the old case and not a new on entirely?

If it is common knowlege that the case is weaker than it should be, then some of this is in the design of the case itself, Why dont you make a new design to incorporate kenworth gears like the other guy wanted, or be able to fit a 2.3 crank, or maybe even a bigger capacity oil resovoir? If youre making it completly from scratch and have the capability of pulling it off, why use an old design?

And since you brough up the idea of cost...what is your estimated cost of said iron box? ANd to make absolutly no referance of cost in your design plaln is idiotic...if this is going to cost way more than the average high hp c900 owner would even consider spending, then you have no market.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:04 PM   #28
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ok...some of that was a little out of context and i take as a diliberate attack on me.....way to have a small cock dude? for one, how do you know im a dude, second, wtf does that have to do with anything?

My comments were what i like to call, constructive criticism and is what i think is implied in posting ideas like this on a forum like this, to get peoples reactions and concerns, because ultimatly you are marketing to us and as a consumer i want to know what i would be paying for is going to be a good product and not someones half assed attemt at a solution. It was in no way a statement attacking you or your friend as i think i stated and was only my opinion, which i am sure i said that. Im glad that you have experience in casting and making patterns with a cnc because i had no idea who you were and what you knew(i htink i said that also somewhere). Now that i know that you know what you are doing with some things, then i will ask you, why are you planning on making a replica of the old case and not a new on entirely?

If it is common knowlege that the case is weaker than it should be, then some of this is in the design of the case itself, Why dont you make a new design to incorporate kenworth gears like the other guy wanted, or be able to fit a 2.3 crank, or maybe even a bigger capacity oil resovoir? If youre making it completly from scratch and have the capability of pulling it off, why use an old design?

And since you brough up the idea of cost...what is your estimated cost of said iron box? ANd to make absolutly no referance of cost in your design plaln is idiotic...if this is going to cost way more than the average high hp c900 owner would even consider spending, then you have no market.
The market is my fucking rally car. Thats the market. I just don't like the way you totally trashed our idea just because your in college.

I was a little weary when james made fun of your penis but i found it refreshing nonetheless. Sorry if anyone has offended you, but I want constructive criticism like "Good sir, I do believe that the case internal dimension needs to be 17.456 inches by where 4th lines up on the output shaft with the layshaft" and not "your case sucks use it as a boat anchor."

We are copying the original design because it will be way stronger with the new material. I do plan to 'tweak' the design for the 2.3 crank, as for the kenworth gears, It might be difficult but the 2.3 crank takes priority. We cant go down any farther, I suppose we could go wider but is it worth it? These are the subjects we should be discussing. I like the picture of your cat, assuming its yours.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:15 PM   #29
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The market is my fucking rally car. Thats the market. I just don't like the way you totally trashed our idea just because your in college.

I was a little weary when james made fun of your penis but i found it refreshing nonetheless. Sorry if anyone has offended you, but I want constructive criticism like "Good sir, I do believe that the case internal dimension needs to be 17.456 inches by where 4th lines up on the output shaft with the layshaft" and not "your case sucks use it as a boat anchor."

We are copying the original design because it will be way stronger with the new material. I do plan to 'tweak' the design for the 2.3 crank, as for the kenworth gears, It might be difficult but the 2.3 crank takes priority. We cant go down any farther, I suppose we could go wider but is it worth it? These are the subjects we should be discussing. I like the picture of your cat, assuming its yours.
1. the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything.
2. the act of passing severe judgment; censure; faultfinding.

this is the definition of criticism, not,

youre doing a good job, these are the exact things your looking for.

Did i say use it as a boat anchor? I said that unless you do a little reseearch and talk to some engineers and people who can tell you what will work and what will not work, then you will have at best, something that is as strong as the origonal part, not to mention a lot heavier.

Do you know that it will be stronger with the new material?

and what does being incolllege have anything to do with how i think? i would have said the exact samee things had it been 2 years ago. I ask questions about stuff that confuse me, and i think of other ideas and solutions to problems that i find, like ones posted in a public forum.

the cat is mine.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:17 PM   #30
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Just shut up and sign up for the group buy.
dont say anything to the fact that the market is your car when you also posted this. it bothers me when people contradict themselves so blatently.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:39 PM   #31
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wtf? this forum does group buys on everything, we are making this for my rally car but I figured if we have a mold made maybe we could help some people. get the fuck off my thread im tired of this shit. you have done nothing productive except prove you can use dictionary.com and act like a douche nozzle
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:52 PM   #32
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wtf? this forum does group buys on everything, we are making this for my rally car but I figured if we have a mold made maybe we could help some people. get the fuck off my thread im tired of this shit. you have done nothing productive except prove you can use dictionary.com and act like a douche nozzle
ask your friend how much a die cast mold for a trans case would cost, then ask him if it is even possible to do a die cast application of your case. Then ask him what kinds of casting processes utilize reusable molds.

and im asking questions about what you are goin to be doing, and offering things for you to think about in your venture, like cost, like design, like production of them for a saleable market, like modifications to make it even better. This is one of the things that is related with asking peoples opinions. ALso, jsut so you know, in the real world when you would be doing this as a production run, there would be a team of people asking you these questions and more, and you would have to answer them and then convince the team that you know what you are doing.

SO far youve convinced me that you have thought little of what has to be done for this to work,

while your friend has convinced me that he knows what he is doing and will probobly think of the same things as me at some point, unless he is like some of the engineers here and have no idea how to practicaly apply anything they have learned, which sounds very far from the case that we have here.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:56 PM   #33
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The mold makes the core, which is destroyed when you pour the cast. I think. Like I said the only person I have to satisfy is myself, and maybe delorean. You have no valid questions, and you know probably less than I do about these gearboxes. So, come back with some helpful stuff or let the big boys talk about it mmkay?

You would be astonished by our cost, also.

It really bums me out when people do this shit. I dont know what to do about it. I just want you to stop saying stupid shit but you won't.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:59 PM   #34
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so you are doing lost wax, or lost foam?
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Old 11-04-2006, 12:01 AM   #35
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What did you call me?
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Old 11-04-2006, 12:02 AM   #36
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i called you a.....lost foam??? i think. im not sure, its been a long night
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Old 11-04-2006, 12:04 AM   #37
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James will let you know. To tell you the truth, this isn't really a brains kind of operation. Stuff just usually works out for us and I've been using that to get through life. Like his profile says, his way is like the wrong way but three times faster.
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Old 11-04-2006, 12:08 AM   #38
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ok...then can you maybe understand why i would have concerns for the outsome of said project.....
i work the opposite as you, i reasearch the hell out of stuff before i do it. Im not saying that either is better, thats just how i think for things that take my money. If its free, im balls in from the get go, but if i have to pay for it, im making sure i only throw away as little as i possibly can in the end. cause i like my money.
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Old 11-04-2006, 12:11 AM   #39
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I can research all day but until I have a kenworth gear set in my hands and a trans pulled apart I dont know for sure.

Does anyone know how far the 2.3 crank/counter balances protrudes from the bottom of the engine casting?

I am also considering gonig to a dry sump just to free up room in there.
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Old 11-04-2006, 12:21 AM   #40
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Nothing against you Price and I understand the questions you’re asking. You've brought up good points but you also keep harping on points that make people upset because they have already answered them and are extremely redundant.

Good points you’ve asked that I can answer for you.

By starting with a copy of the stock case they have a template to begin and continue design from; this alone will save tremendous time in the R&D and save money. Also, by going with iron over aluminum they will accomplish two things. First, iron by its own physical properties is much stronger than aluminum so even if there were defects in the casting such as bubbles described in the description of taking a sledgehammer and see what you find after hitting the c900 gearbox housing the iron would still be stronger and more robust and durable than aluminum with the same style and number of cast defects as an aluminum case. Second, because its iron like the block, it will have the exact same expansion rate or pretty darn close subject to the different iron make up and other elements that find there way in. When everything expands and contracts at the same rate you don't have to worry about the seals leaking or the casing cracking from thermal expansion and pressure between the block and transmission case. This is the main reason that the head gaskets fail on our wonderful saabs every 115,000 to 130,000 miles. The heads are aluminum and the block is cast iron so they expand at different rates.

So that’s two improvements over the stock c900 transmission if they do an exact duplicate of the c900 box in iron and wait there’s more. They would also save even more money on R&D because all the internals would go into the same places.

So right off the bat there are three advantages to this project. Now with all that money that has been saved; R&D can go to accepting a 2.3 crank and different gears. Also, while there at it; if a TSL member wanted to put a b234 in the c900 they could design a case to bolt up in place of the oil pan and the clearance of the 2.3 crank would be there already.

Now lets go onto the points that are annoying as hell and shouldn’t have been brought up.

Shifting and how long your transmission will last……hmmmmmmmmmmmm………don’t ever mention “proper” driving techniques……..theres no such fucking thing except how to operate a clutch in basic principle. Its no secret that if you baby your transmission and shift as slow as a sloth and drive as slow as a elderly couple in a Cadillac that your transmission will last forever as would your clutch. But how many of us actually do that, be it a Sonnett through to a 9-5, with our Saabs. Most of us drive our cars pretty hard because they are a sports car. They handle extremely well, have usable power and torque, and throw through the gears with moderate to extreme force because we live to drive and be happy. Obviously when you drive this way the transmission isn’t going to last as long as the sloth driver. Each of us has our own driving and shifting style which would define the “proper” driving style as you put it for one person. So now that this is cleared up lets go to the first applicant for this case.

Saabsbreakdown is having this case done for his rally car. My god it’s a rally car………He’s going to beat the hell out of this uprated transmission and get a great feel of the improvement or there lack off……………Now lets think, whats the greatest thing that comes from racing. FUCKING R&D BABY. Look at Ferrari for example. They don’t build road cars. They build a race car, try new ideas and parts, analyse them after a race, improve them, test again, then they decide to create a road car that embodies there race cars by incorporating the parts from the race car to the road car. The new F430 is the best example. The electronically controlled LSD, the F1 sytled transmission, the actively controlled and adjustable suspension that can range from race track settings to highway cruising. They developed all this stuff, found where it failed and needed improvement, and took the necessary steps before applying to everyday uses.

It truly is a shame saab left all forms a motorsports saying that the developments were no longer helping the production cars. The transmissions would have been greatly improved from day one. Now, fast forward some 20 years from the 1980’s at the end of saab rallying and Saabsbreakdown is doing it right. He is having a part built for a rally car, it will be tested there, probably removed afterward and analysed, improved where needed and then finally tested again followed by production if its at 100% and be sold to those that need a better transmission. From here, it won’t matter how you shift, be it sloth or speedy Gonzalez because its been slamed and ripped on the off road track and proven itself worthy. From here the market becomes the public.

Summary

Only after every single step has been preformed from: original design, prototype, road test, analyzing results of road test, improvement and re-test, tooling for mass production; can an estimate on how much these cases would cost be formulated. I can’t think of one product that from scratch a group of engineers could say oh it will cost this much to do everything to reach production and the price to the consumer. Maybe if you’d been doing something similar for years and had data to back it up say like building a F1 car from scratch or writing the budget you’d need for that.

This project has mounds of potential and has an engineer with the expertise in casting required and because its starting off the right way. Theres a problem that needs to be overcome for the rally car and from there it can and will be adapted for road use. While it wouldn't hurt to have a powertrain engineer involved they have a much better start than Joe Schmoe in the middle of a shack who knows where.

BTW.........All great ideas had to start with somebody in the middle of a shack who knows where. Otherwise we wouldn't have shit and still be like monkeys throwing poo at everything around us.

P.S. I'm not even a c900 driver and the way you've addressed saabsbreakdown and devork pisses me off as well.

P.S. Also to my accredidation, I was an engineering student for two years and made it through the math and science requirements as well as basic level engineering classes where stuff like this was discussed because I was a mechanical engineer student. Now i'm an accounting major.



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