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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-21-2004 07:01 PM
Tweek's Turbos Thanks for the tips SaabTuner..

Chip, sorry for the threadjacking
02-21-2004 06:06 PM
SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweek's Turbos
Ok Adrian, Lemme mention I also have a Garret T-28 with newer style curved blades instead of the T25s straight blades.

Lemme see here. What I want to do is,

Get a Viggen Head, or at least a Ported T5 head. With viggen Valves.
Cams from a NA 2.3
Exhaust header say, from Taliaferro.
Is it safe to backcut the nimonic valves from the VIggy?


Mind you this is just talking general head work. Can you recomend a good headgasket? maybe something copper?

I plan on sticking with the Propane injection, as it has better reviews than alky inj for the turbo buick crowd, and dont think I will be using a water sprayer. However I did see one on an STI a buddy looked at and thought it was a novel idea.
As for the propane injection, that's up to you. Typically cars have trouble getting enough oxidizer into the engine, rather than not enough fuel. (Propane is just a another fuel, no better than gasoline.) You'd get more power with Nitrous Oxide, and some extra fuel from your standard fuel system than you would with propane. Both will run out when the bottle is empty so I don't see any difference in that regard. It's just another trick to get horsepower for a few seconds at a time.

Ok well here's the breadown of the "red" questions:

Ported T5 head will be much cheaper than a T7 head. With the extra money you saved you can get some things ceramic coated. Cermic coating the exhaust valves is better than getting the Nimonic Alloy 901 valves from the Viggen. Though both is better still. You'll also have enough to Cermic coat the pistons, intake vaves, and exhaust manifold if you choose not to get the headers.

As for back-cutting nimonic alloy valves I would reccomend against it. Nimonic is a very tough alloy, but it's NOT steel. It's a nickel alloy, with a very complex composition. Probably best not to do anything to it unless you're sure what you're doing.

I want to reccomend again ceramic coating the piston tops and exhaust valves. These are the two primary weak points in most turbo engines. Getting them coated with significantly reduce the heat absorbed by the engine. The less heat that is absorbed, the more goes into powering the car! The exhaust valves just need to be coated so they can take the heat for longer periods. If you refuse to get them coated, Nimonic is better than standard Stainless, but coating them will certainly increase their durability.

To get some performance coatings, in case you wish to spend some more on various other things that can be coated, go here:

http://www.performancecoatings.com/enginecoatings.html

When I get a chance I intend to coat the heck outta my Viggen's motor. A turbo engine is basically just an efficient hot gas generator for your turbine (the turbo) ... so how you manage that heat is very very important to how well you power that turbine. The performance coatings are all about heat management, and lowering friction. Both of which make the motor are more efficient hot gas generator. *big thumbsup*

Adrian~
02-21-2004 10:19 AM
Tweek's Turbos Ok Adrian, Lemme mention I also have a Garret T-28 with newer style curved blades instead of the T25s straight blades.

Lemme see here. What I want to do is,

Get a Viggen Head, or at least a Ported T5 head. With viggen Valves.
Cams from a NA 2.3
Exhaust header say, from Taliaferro.
Is it safe to backcut the nimonic valves from the VIggy?


Mind you this is just talking general head work. Can you recomend a good headgasket? maybe something copper?

I plan on sticking with the Propane injection, as it has better reviews than alky inj for the turbo buick crowd, and dont think I will be using a water sprayer. However I did see one on an STI a buddy looked at and thought it was a novel idea.
02-20-2004 08:12 PM
SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweek's Turbos
Ok, lemme be more specific. And add some questions.

I already have a Viggen IC on my T5 car. Would it be good for me to add a T7 head, say off a Viggen or HOT, and use my stock T5 2.0 cams, or should I get a Viggen or Hot head, and use 2.3na cams? If I go with a T7 head, I wont port it. How about back cutting the valves? I plan on spraying propane, into the intake to counter any lean, or hot intake issues. (but thats another post for another day.)
Well firstly ... get a water sprayer for the IC ... rig up a resistance switch to your temperature sensor. You should be able to tap into it and set it so that when intake temps reach a certain point water will be sprayed on the IC to cool things down ...

... secondly ... a new T7 head is along the lines of $3,000 ... porting a T5 head will work just fine, even though it has some swirl characteristics. In the case of the T5 head, porting will make a big enough improvement in top end to counter the loss to swirl.

There are other advantages to the T7, not the least of which is the Nimonic Alloy 901 temperature stable exhaust valves. These allow for higher EGT, and I know the Viggen has them. But I am uncertain if all of the other T7 cars do ... I would assume so.

If you get the Viggen head with the Naturally aspirated or Aero cams you'll see plenty of top end. The Naturally aspirated cams are worth about 15 more horses on the Viggen when compared to the Aero cams, and 30 when compared to stock, so if you can find some they are a better deal.

Back cutting the valves can also affect swirl. The purpose of backcutting is to increase flow, but like I said the T7 head flows well. However feel free to back-cut the T5 head's valves.

As for propane injection a good water injection system will work much better. It allows you to run full boost with a 13:1 AF ratio and without knocking. The reduction to in-cyllinder and exhaust CO is significant as well. But both systems are difficult to setup. I would stay away from any kind of injection system unless you're really to go all out on it and do it right. Spraying the IC with water should cool things off well enough.

Also porting the head, backcutting valves, changing cams etc will increase flow and may require a larger than stock turbo. If you put aggressive enough cams in, and have enough porting, and enough intercooling, you may see well over 300 hp on only 15 psi of boost. Flow is more important that pressure, but in the stock Saabs there is very little flow. You may also see a mileage decrease with increased flow, which is why Saabs didn't have much flow from the factory. And with bigger cams, porting, larger turbo you WILL need a Bigger IC than the standard Viggen unit. But that's for later.

Adrian~
02-20-2004 07:19 PM
Tweek's Turbos Ok, lemme be more specific. And add some questions.

I already have a Viggen IC on my T5 car. Would it be good for me to add a T7 head, say off a Viggen or HOT, and use my stock T5 2.0 cams, or should I get a Viggen or Hot head, and use 2.3na cams? If I go with a T7 head, I wont port it. How about back cutting the valves? I plan on spraying propane, into the intake to counter any lean, or hot intake issues. (but thats another post for another day.)
02-20-2004 06:57 PM
SaabTuner The Viggen IC can "handle" plenty of flow. But whether it can handle the T5 engine depends on if you mean the 2.3L or the 2.0. I'll assume you mean the 2.0, in which case it should be "adequate" but it will likely cost you between $300 and $400 to get the Viggen IC and all the hoses. For $600 you could have an intercooler 3 times the size.

The naturally aspirated camshafts will only give about 12-15 hp on a T5 engine if tuned for them. T7 cars had MUCH worse camshafts, but MUCH BETTER inlet ducts. The T7 head is considerably better than the T5, but it just has bad cams.

Ok well .. I should be specific, the T7 doesn't have BAD camshafts. They're just designed for spool up and torque rather than horsepower. This was because Saab revised the swirl characteristics of the inlet ports, which allowed them to make the inlet ports bigger and get more flow, with less aggresive cams. This is why the Viggen, even with worse camshafts, slightly less boost, and a more restrictive Turbine housing makes MORE horses than the equivalent 9000 Aero. The T7 head is that much better.

Something else I should note ... DO NOT port your T7 head. It flows extremely well and has swirl characteristics that are dependant on the exact shape of the inlet ports. Unless you are out for a pure race car, porting will yield almost no top end improvement, and will substantially increase knock sensitivity at lower revs.

Anyway ... back to the your question Tweek. Yes a Viggen intercooler will work. And yes you need BOTH cams! But it won't help a whole lot. It's been tested to only yield a very very small improvement. Look for an upgraded one / intercooler water spray.

As for the headers, that's a great idea. They will significantly increase spool up, and decrease EGT. If they are made well, with a proper Inconel alloy they should also be just as durable as the stock manifolds. Something else to consider while you have your engine apart is ceramic coated pistons. One of the major factors causing knock is heat soak in the piston.

The piston can only shed heat in small amounts through the oil sprayed at the bottom, and through the piston skirts and rings. This is a relatively long distance for the heat to travel, and because of conductive properties of metals the center top of the piston can get quite hot, as can the exhaust valves. Coating both with ceramic reduces the heat absorbed, and thus not only reduces the likelihood for detonation, but also reduces coolant temps. (Coolant temps also greatly affect detonation)

Putting all those things together (good intercooler, water sprayer, headers, ceramic pistons with moly coated skirts, ceramic coated exhaust valves if possible) and you should have one really really mean Saab. And that's before you even turn up the boost. :P

Adrian~
02-20-2004 06:03 PM
Tweek's Turbos Silly question SaabTuner..We would need both cams correct? This sounds like a good mod to do when adding a ported intake, and perhaps the header nick has. Everything should be apart anyways. Also, would a VIC handle the flow from the cams on a T5 like mine?
02-20-2004 04:25 PM
SaabTuner On the note of camshafts, the Naturally aspirated 2.3L from the 94-98 900's has the most aggresive Saab "shortblock" camshaft. Assuming T7 is happy with it, it's good for 20-30 hp on a T7 car, and about 10-15 hp on a T5 car. And if you can find one and get it reconditioned, not expensive at all. Also I have seen dyno sheets of Viggens with just a chip. Very little hp increase, and maybe 15-20 lb ft more torque.

Nick Taliafferro from Taliafferro Saab put the B234R (9000 Aero, not as aggressive as the B234i camshaft from the Naturally Aspirated 2.3L) camshaft in his Viggen, and combined with a downpipe and intercooler (neither of which makes more than 1-2 hp, but drastically increases spool up) he got from about 210 whp, to 232 whp. Then by adding a chip he was up to 252 whp. If you got the naturally aspirated camshaft you would see (assuming T7 likes it like I said) around 245 whp. Combine it with an exhaust and intercooler and you'd have a very mean machine that shouldn't void the warranty. (The dealer would need to prove that your mods hurt the engine. Exhausts and intercoolers are the only thing they would be able to spot. Neither of which could possibly be harmful to the engine, and the camshaft is nearly impossible to spot. After all it's a Saab cam.)

It's probably best just to get a stage III from MapTun or somebody similar. This is because intercoolers are generally expensive, and the stock Viggen IC responds well to high boost, but not high flow. Putting camshafts will give the engine too much flow for the IC to keep up with.

If you want to check out some relatively cheap intercoolers try www.bellintercoolers.com .... they can make custom end tanks, and an intercooler easily capable of handling anything the Viggen can throw at it would be about $600 to get done custom. Which is about half the price of the SpeedParts and MapTun units, which are only about half the size. But the SP and MT units will be much much easier to instal. Anyway ... just my thoughts ... 213 whp rocks!

Adrian~
02-20-2004 02:13 PM
WS not really......i mean we cant have a blow off valve.......even though its not really a performance mod.....it sounds cool. Also its just a pain cause everytime you touch anything you basically have to retune the engine. Any performance mods will not increase the max hp, only the torque and hp curves up till it hits its max hp which is "230hp" but different in each car im sure. Im gettting my car dyoed tomorrow if everything goes as scheduled....so ill get some graphs up if i am not ashamed of the numbers... I wish i would have dynoed my car before i knew most viggens were underated so that it would have been a huge surprise. Now that i know this im only gonna be sad if i get under 210 whp. 210-220 whp is what im aiming for.
02-20-2004 10:09 AM
Boxerchip yeah everything is expensive... but also better
02-20-2004 09:44 AM
WS sucks having a T7
02-19-2004 09:08 PM
NineThreeTurbo sorry i was posting prices for the the 9-3 t5...its cheaper than your viggen ecu...good luck.
02-19-2004 07:59 PM
BurnsSide42 wait - they warrenty the fucking Viggen Turbo's!!
02-19-2004 07:57 PM
Tweek's Turbos Fuck yeah
02-19-2004 07:50 PM
Boxerchip no i did not get it.... i was like mannnn screw this ima get an ECU
02-19-2004 07:42 PM
Tweek's Turbos You crack head Didn't you get that stupid warranty incase the turbo goes? Now look at ya, changing the turbo on us.
02-19-2004 07:30 PM
WS im pretty sure the stock blocks can handle more than 300hp. And where did u find an ECU for 600...i was thinkin more along the lines of $850 - $1000. ECU and Downpipe are the major mods before upgrading the turbo.....and upgrading the turbo will not be easy. Speedparts uses a garret turbo which will cost u a good bit alone, not to mention you would want to upgrade the fuel system as well. ECU is about 800 min., then a downpipe is about 450 w/o a high flow cat which u need so add another ~150 for a cat plus install. so ur already up to your $1500 limit....these mods will increase your whole rpm range and i dont know if u will want a turbo upgrade that bad after you have these. With these you can probably dyno at 250+ to the wheels. Torque will be monsterous....probably around 300 wheel tq. if not more. A turbo upgrade would detract from your torque.....although that could be good for traction reasons.....but then u would need to support the turbo with new fuel injectors......possibly a fuel pressure regulator. Any a few other things im not thinking of.

I think one of the best upgrades for a viggen would be a cam and an extended redline. It seems as though the viggen makes too much torque for its own good.....and a cam would raise the power band up and reduce some low end torque. I could be totally wrong but it just seems that cams do wonders for V8's and i dont see why it couldnt do good for a Viggen. My buddy has a Trans Am WS6 and he put a full exhaust w/ long tube headers, no cats....most of the intake is upgraded minus the throttle body and somethin else....but just with a cam and these mods he put down 399.99 RWHP and ~380 - 390 tq. This is up from probably 350 whp with the mods w/o the cam
02-19-2004 05:29 PM
NineThreeTurbo first of all when you say you want alot out of your viggen exacly what do you mean...how far do you want to take it.

your options are endless depending on how much you are willing to spend. do you have your viggen chipped now, and still want more out of it?

im pretty sure you can see upwards of 300 hp on the stock viggen turbo....

if you are looking for over 300 you will haev to rework alot....you are looking at new turbo, upgrade internals, fuel will have to be upgraded (regulator, injectors, and prob fuel pump..) also if you are going bigger turbo you will have more turbo lag than u have stock, but the tradeoff will be in the upper rpm range....

there are advantages and disadvantages of going both ways. if you have only 1500 to spend, and thats all your looking to sink in i would go about it another rout,...im not sure what u have done now but id take that money and invest in,,

chip $600
intake $200
exhaust $500
diverter valve $130
mbc $80
apropriate gauges
have throttle body honed.--?


that is just my opinion..hope it helped...now if you have alot more moneyto work with and you wanna make this viggen REAL sick..then your oportunities are endless. more hp more money..the game is not cheap

im not sure what the viggen turbos can handle horsepower wise, but i heard that the stock blocks can handle up to 300 hp....now thats moving..

if you do decide to get another turbo, let me know, ill take that ol viggen turbo of your hands...

--jason
02-19-2004 04:38 PM
Boxerchip
stupid questions about turbos

Im quite lost as far as turbos go... so im going to just ask everything i can think of and see what everyone knows.

i have a 99 viggen and i want a new turbo, Whats the best one to get? Im not looking to spend THAT much but i do have 1,500$. I want to go far with this viggen so i want a nice turbo but i also dont want too much turbo lag. Where can i get a new turbo and if i did get one how could i get it installed? what would be the benifits of getting a bigger turbo VS boosting really high on the one i have. Would i need a new ECU to get a new turbo?

Sorry to sound so stupid and im sure your all tired of stupid questions like this but i cant find this stuff and alot of its personial oppion. What do you think i should do!?

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