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Thread: GS DP w/Race CAT FAILS CA Smog...BOO!! Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-15-2008 06:55 PM
perkj Nick,

Below is the data logger of a run with the stock DP on....with my understanding of FTs, there doesn't appear to be anything out of whack here....it appears the STFT is doing its job since the LTFT is staying constant and not doing any adjustment. So it appears the car itself is in working order. I run another data log with the GS downpipe to see if my LTFT start shifting.

Time.................RPM.....STFT (%)..LTFT (%).Air Flow Rate (lb/min)
07:03:39.000.......916........0...........4.68.... .....0.52
07:03:40.000.......888........0.78.......4.68..... ....0.52
07:03:41.000.......893........0...........4.68.... .....0.52
07:03:42.000.......915........0.78.......4.68..... ....0.51
07:03:43.000.......1086......0...........4.68..... ....1.71
07:03:44.000.......1429......0...........4.68..... ....1.76
07:03:46.000.......1554......-2.34......4.68.........3.79
07:03:47.000.......2749......-2.34......4.68.........4.86
07:03:48.000.......3571......0.78.......4.68...... ...5.36
07:03:49.000.......4033......0.78.......4.68...... ...1.73
07:03:50.000.......2381......9.36.......4.68...... ... 6.86
07:03:51.000.......2771......-1.56......4.68......... 5.11
07:03:52.000.......3015......0.78.......4.68...... ... 3.96
07:03:53.000.......3168......1.56.......4.68...... ... 2.38
07:03:54.000.......3171......2.34.......4.68...... ... 1.58
07:03:55.000.......3096......6.24.......4.68...... ... 1.49
07:03:56.000.......3031......3.12.......4.68...... ... 1.31
07:03:57.000.......2921......0...........4.68..... .... 1.18
07:03:58.000.......2769......-0.78......4.68......... 1.08
07:03:59.000.......2653......-3.12......4.68......... 0.96
07:04:00.000.......2528......-0.78......4.68......... 0.9
07:04:01.000.......2368......-3.12......4.68......... 0.82
07:04:02.000.......2008......0...........4.68..... .... 0.67
07:04:03.000.......1314......-4.68......4.68......... 0.6
07:04:04.000.......951........-6.24......4.68......... 0.57
07:04:05.000.......1499......-6.24......4.68......... 1.84
07:04:06.000.......2109......-7.8.......4.68......... 4.44
07:04:07.000.......3228......-3.9.......4.68......... 6.04
07:04:08.000.......3759......0...........4.68..... .... 1.51
07:04:09.000.......2253......8.58.......4.68...... ... 5.72
07:04:10.000.......2592......-1.56......4.68......... 3.26
07:04:11.000.......2763......3.9.........4.68..... .... 3.48
07:04:12.000.......2914......4.68.......4.68...... ... 3.8
07:04:13.000.......3029......2.34.......4.68...... ... 2.7
07:04:14.000.......3055......7.8.........4.68..... .... 2.73
07:04:16.000.......3207......7.8.........4.68..... .... 4.42
07:04:17.000.......3268......2.34.......4.68...... ... 1.6
07:04:18.000.......3199......9.36.......4.68...... ... 1.55
07:04:19.000.......3057......7.02.......4.68...... ... 1.34
07:04:20.000.......2963......3.9.........4.68..... .... 1.28
07:04:21.000.......2902......0...........4.68..... .... 2.57
07:04:22.000.......2963......2.34.......4.68...... ... 3.61
07:04:23.000.......3106......0...........4.68..... .... 3.82
07:04:24.000.......3220......2.34.......4.68...... ... 2.24
07:04:26.000.......3036......5.46.......4.68...... ... 1.31
07:04:27.000.......2761......1.56.......4.68...... ... 1.08
07:04:28.000.......2413......-2.34......4.68......... 0.87
07:04:29.000.......1968......-2.34......4.68......... 0.69
07:04:30.000.......1249......-4.68......4.68......... 0.61
04-15-2008 12:28 PM
Ice Man ^ Good to know. Thanks Nick. I was dreading the potential uninstall/reinstall.
04-15-2008 12:14 PM
GenuineSaab We run an expensive metal cat in all the downpipes we make. Always have.. But the old JT systems we put cheap catco cats in them for some of our cars and a few customers years ago. They are all the problem. Our production downpipes have not had any problems.
04-15-2008 12:03 PM
Ice Man So are the current production DP are made with Catco? I bought a DP a couple of months ago and can't remember what cat was on it.
04-15-2008 12:03 PM
lms So your car was pretty much running a tad lean so to speak. Next test try this and this goes for all Ca high NOX cars:
Put the lowest octane gas in the car.
Drive the piss out of car before you smog it and keep it running while you are waiting.
Inflate tires to over 45 psi, less friction the better.
Turn on your heater full blast in the car while they are testing. But before make sure your cooling system is in perfect order.
Make sure they place a fan pointing at front of car.
Last but not least and is super important, HAVE THEM TEST CAR IN FIRST AT 15 AND SECOND at 25. Nothing states that they have to test in second and third. The only prob. is that they will have to find the sweet spot in first and half the guys are lazy as hell and just put it in second and third.
My car had about the same readings. The tech told me to do all of the above and low and behold, 4 days later it passed.
Good luck
04-15-2008 10:48 AM
JK
Quote:
Originally Posted by amish_geek View Post
Or you can register a foreign corporation in a state that does not have emmissions testing, and sell your car to your new company, and get license/registration in said state.

No more emissions testing!
Again, you have the most simple solutions to these terribly complicated problems.

...no, wait, switch that.
04-15-2008 10:10 AM
amish_geek Or you can register a foreign corporation in a state that does not have emmissions testing, and sell your car to your new company, and get license/registration in said state.

No more emissions testing!
04-15-2008 10:04 AM
JZW
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenuineSaab View Post
With stock software you can end up with some odd fuel trims running modified hardware. The short term will fight the long term since the flow is so much higher.

The problem is everybody wants cheap.. This is still a $120 cat. Problem with the ceramic cores is they do not like the high output cars. You end up with a short lifespan. Every car here locally we put a $50 Catco on has failed! I am running this same cat as production dp in my Vig and it is still in good condition. We experienced so many other cat failures I had to make and loan out gauges.. Who is going to buy a downpipe that was $200 or $300 more than existing. Or do I just put a $50 cat in it and expect it to only last 1 year.
Have you tried the magnaflow high flow cats? They are about 100 bucks and I passed on the rolling dyno in Colorado with all my mods and stock fuel injectors and sw. cat was about 2 years old and I have run race gas and tons of w/m through it.

It was very close to passing with tuned stage 6 sw in the car. The nox limit was 4.0, my car put down 4.2 and only failed in the acceleration section. Everything else passed, co, hc, c02.

High nox can be from the timing being too far advanced and high cylinder temps or a bad cat.

John
04-15-2008 09:53 AM
perkj
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenuineSaab View Post
With stock software you can end up with some odd fuel trims running modified hardware. The short term will fight the long term since the flow is so much higher.
Thanks Nick, I will get the fuel trim data logs tonight.

Though Swedishassassin saw the same issue issue two months ago, failed in CA with high NO, on his Stage 4 SW: https://saablink.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26719


Quote:
Originally Posted by GenuineSaab View Post
The problem is everybody wants cheap.. This is still a $120 cat. Problem with the ceramic cores is they do not like the high output cars. You end up with a short lifespan. Every car here locally we put a $50 Catco on has failed! I am running this same cat as production dp in my Vig and it is still in good condition. We experienced so many other cat failures I had to make and loan out gauges.. Who is going to buy a downpipe that was $200 or $300 more than existing. Or do I just put a $50 cat in it and expect it to only last 1 year.
Just curious, what brand CAT is on the GS DP....looks to be a Dynatech PowerCat at first glance
04-15-2008 09:20 AM
Palmer Any time you modify a car, you take those chances...


Looks like I will be ordering your pressure tester, Nick as I have a catco cat on my car.
04-15-2008 08:52 AM
GenuineSaab With stock software you can end up with some odd fuel trims running modified hardware. The short term will fight the long term since the flow is so much higher.

The problem is everybody wants cheap.. This is still a $120 cat. Problem with the ceramic cores is they do not like the high output cars. You end up with a short lifespan. Every car here locally we put a $50 Catco on has failed! I am running this same cat as production dp in my Vig and it is still in good condition. We experienced so many other cat failures I had to make and loan out gauges.. Who is going to buy a downpipe that was $200 or $300 more than existing. Or do I just put a $50 cat in it and expect it to only last 1 year.
04-15-2008 08:03 AM
perkj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmer View Post
Have you contacted Nick T directly about this?

Checking with Nick on MS-Messenger now....just awaiting a response, will let you know what he comes back with
04-15-2008 07:49 AM
nowhereman thank god for having a 1997 and living in NH...

No smog testing for me...
04-15-2008 07:41 AM
Ice Man Damn, I hope I pass is October. I'll have to compare the limits here (Ontario) and what numbers you got and see if I even have a chance.
04-15-2008 07:28 AM
93nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by perkj View Post
Nope.....the smog checks in California now are run on a rolling Dyno and there is a test at 15 MPH in 2nd gear and 25 MPH in 3rd gear.....no rpm requirement in any way. Looking at my sheet, the rpms where at like 1500-1800 rpm.
damn! rolling road for smog is no joke. The test is conducted at a controlled RPM but in neutral over here in Germany. The rolling road smog is only for cars that are admittedly tuned and is a extra charge and appointment. :-thats why i kept my mouth shut about my tune.
04-15-2008 07:27 AM
Palmer Have you contacted Nick T directly about this?
04-15-2008 07:22 AM
perkj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambiocorsa View Post
Are you sure your car is running right? Or maybe it was just a bad cat? I have heard of Saabs with NO cat ALMOST passing emissions, so with a racecat it should be easy.

Car is running perfect....fuels trims are all right on, O2 sensors are all within range, compression is well within spec, zero vaccum leaks, plugs have less than 5K on them are gapped within spec, no CEL, etc etc. California Smog is quite strict now compared to any other state. California requires all of the sniff tests to be run on an rolling dyno at 15 mph and 25 mph to simulate real world driving vs. just the only standing still RPM tests.

A failure on the NO(PPM) is due to one of two things (1). either a bad CAT or a CAT not up to smog spec or (2) too high of combustion temps

Just the mere fact that by changing the DP only and nothing else and the issue was solved shows that its due to the CAT not been capable to adhereing to CA's CARB Smog specs. It should be noted as well that the GS DP is less than a year old. As I'm sure you know, the stock DP has 2 CATs....the first of the CATs is the smaller one, yet it is still larger than the one on the GS DP and then there is the 2nd one which is over twice the size of the one on the GS DP. I think if GS would put one of the larger high flow CATs, say similar to the one on JAKs DP, there won't be an issue given that when it failed, it just barely failed.
04-15-2008 07:12 AM
perkj
Quote:
Originally Posted by 93nut View Post
Do they run the smog test at higher RPMs if the engine is tuned? Europe has the same strict laws as Cali, maybe worse. I have the GS 3 "down pipe and race cat with a flowmaster 40 series muffler. I didn't tell them it was tuned and it passed with flying colors, no questions asked.

Nope.....the smog checks in California now are run on a rolling Dyno and there is a test at 15 MPH in 2nd gear and 25 MPH in 3rd gear.....no rpm requirement in any way. Looking at my sheet, the rpms where at like 1500-1800 rpm.
04-14-2008 09:37 PM
Cambiocorsa Are you sure your car is running right? Or maybe it was just a bad cat? I have heard of Saabs with NO cat ALMOST passing emissions, so with a racecat it should be easy.
04-14-2008 09:27 PM
93nut Do they run the smog test at higher RPMs if the engine is tuned? Europe has the same strict laws as Cali, maybe worse. I have the GS 3 "down pipe and race cat with a flowmaster 40 series muffler. I didn't tell them it was tuned and it passed with flying colors, no questions asked.
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