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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Thread: Even More Viggen Datalogs: Craziness!! Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-18-2005 11:31 AM
Vigge Adrian it is a whole different story if we are talking about peak bhp or stady figures. One needs to be some what "loose in the head" to think that a saab with stock turbo could actually produce steady 300bhp numbers.

In the end there are 300bhp and 300bhp cars and I bet all of us know what difference is between them...
01-18-2005 01:05 AM
SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehayes01
Adrian how did you Viggen post more WHP than the allowed stock figures??? I am just curious about this and how it is possible when the stock HP numbers should not support 200+ WHP? Just curious. Thanks!!
You know, I've had the chance to talk with one of the tuners from Hirsch tuning in private. He's a really great guy. He was telling me how Hirsch dyno their cars, and I think Saab do the same thing:

They hold the car at full throttle at a certain RPM for long periods until the power output is stable. They want to make 100% sure that it will deliver the rating no matter how long you are on the throttle Both Vigge and I ran on inertia dynos which move through the RPM just like you and I do on the road, but not how someone would on the autobahn.

Hirsch's and Saab's figures are probably VERY accurate for how the car runs near redline for several minutes on the Autobahn. Naturally aspirated cars usually maintain good hp even for long periods, but turbo-cars don't, and I think that's the difference; one car is held at 5,000+ RPM and full throttle for several minutes, things heat up a lot, maybe there's some boost-reduction from detonation. Either way the pumping losses will be huge from all the heat-soak, and the coolant temps might even be high ... so less power.

Perhaps both mine and Saabs ratings were and are accurate *IF* you take into account the conditions for the measurement and have stock hardware, like the stock thermostat.

But since I could never legally run at 5,000 RPM and full throttle for more than a few seconds because of the low speed limits in the US, so I think it's quite fair to rate my car in a different manner.

Does that make more sense?
01-17-2005 11:23 PM
stevehayes01 Adrian how did you Viggen post more WHP than the allowed stock figures??? I am just curious about this and how it is possible when the stock HP numbers should not support 200+ WHP? Just curious. Thanks!!
01-17-2005 05:14 PM
SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcmdesign
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
Rob, I did get my STOCK Viggen dyno'd. It ran exactly 213 whp and 251 lb-ft. Did you totally forget about the dyno sheets I posted months ago?
Apparently Adrian did have it dynoed Steve, and won't post the results again But I'm confused, a stock viggen has 225 horses, why does he have so much more (BASED ON ASSUMPTIONS) By the way I checked your posting history for a month ago..Can't find a dyno graph..
Hmmm. You're right, I must have only posted it on SaabScene. Sorry for that. You can search there if you like, it was about a year ago I think. Here are all three dyno-papers. I don't think I had joined SaabLink until a few months after. At that point I just assumed everyone had seen them.

The first run was 206, then 211, then 213:







Adrian~
01-16-2005 01:04 PM
stevehayes01 That HP number would coincide with exactly what I have been saying all along and that is that the stock HP numbers from Saab are low to begin with and that based on ambient conditions and a K&N drop in filter (which I think adrian has) that you can achieve higher Hp numbers than stock estimates. Otherwise the 215HP is completley impossible based on all the thoeries being dropped back and forth around here. By my calculations a stock viggen should run around 190WHP based on a rough 17ish % drivetrain loss so where did those extra 25ponies come from?????? Enquiring minds want to know!
01-16-2005 12:51 PM
rcmdesign
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
Rob, I did get my STOCK Viggen dyno'd. It ran exactly 213 whp and 251 lb-ft. Did you totally forget about the dyno sheets I posted months ago?
Apparently Adrian did have it dynoed Steve, and won't post the results again But I'm confused, a stock viggen has 225 horses, why does he have so much more (BASED ON ASSUMPTIONS) By the way I checked your posting history for a month ago..Can't find a dyno graph..
01-16-2005 11:57 AM
stevehayes01 I think this has become a PISSING CONTEST here.....THe only way to settle this is for Adrian to get his car on a Dyno and for Vigge to redyno his car and lets see what we come up with here!!!!
01-16-2005 11:01 AM
Vigge Adrian mail nordic for instance and ask their oppinion on 9-3 losses.

And just for aditional reference, here is a bone stock sti from that dyno I use.
http://viggen93.mine.nu/viggen/sti.bmp
I believe its rated for 265

There are plenty more if you're not convinced.

Please dont quote other dynejet results, I'm only interested in the one you used. I can link you a dozen dynejet results that are far far off the scale.
01-16-2005 05:54 AM
SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge
But you're not seriously saying that a 9-3 has 18% losses
Assumption 2, you whp figure is spot on, no dynojet extra.
If you don't want to believe the figues for losses on the emerald rolling road session, then why the heck should we believe your figures which were calculated the same way? You don't even know what your losses were.

And what about that graph of yours with the whp higher than the crank hp? You laugh at me for believing 18% losses after you posted a graph with negative 2% losses. I know you didn't read it carefully ... but you believed it. If you can believe that, why is 18% so unreasonable?

And you don't think dynojet is accurate eh?

COBB Tuning sell a stage 1 package for the WRX which makes 260 hp: http://cobbtuning.com/wrx/power-s.html#stage1

I've attached a dynosheet of a friend's stage 1 Cobb tuned WRX. He got 191 whp. That makes for 26.5% drivetain loss. Since most people believe that AWD takes about 22-25% I think it would be a stretch to say that dynojet reads "artificially high".

Adrian~
01-16-2005 03:07 AM
Vigge
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
---"when he won't go down the street and get his NON-MODIFIED viggen dynoed to prove it's stock...hmmm"---

Rob, I did get my STOCK Viggen dyno'd. It ran exactly 213 whp and 251 lb-ft. Did you totally forget about the dyno sheets I posted months ago?

Based on normal "measured" transmission loss for a 9-3, 213 whp is 260 crank hp. That's exactly what I'm claiming.

Adrian~
But you're not seriously saying that a 9-3 has 18% losses
Assumption 2, you whp figure is spot on, no dynojet extra.
01-16-2005 02:53 AM
Vigge
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge
Adrian please explain the follwing

"That car appears to be running very poorly"

Dyno run was cut when hp curve pointed down in case you did not notice.
That car's torque curve did not in any way resemble the factory curve; it was erratic and unstable. The torque peak was also arouned 4000 RPM instead of 2000-2500 as would be expected given the factory measurements.

Now if you assume the factory measurements are not accurate, then you cannot use it to justify YOUR car's accuracy.

Adrian~

p.s. My car may not be the highest, but it's dead in the center for average as at the Viking challenge Viggens ran almost always beteween 212-214 whp. I think it is silly to question the results.
I think you missed the whole point in that dyno sheet, it was provided to show that this dyno in general is not generous. I have plenty more sheet from that shop, non of them look suspicious when it comes to peak hp values.

What comes to that 9-3 aero, according to the owner it ran perfectly fine at the time. He works for saab btw. I will see if I can get you a different plot from another stock aero for comparison about the torque grapgh shape.

Basically I interested in reference sheet from that shop you use to rule out the possibility of that dyno being genourous. You cant say dynojets dont have that reputation... I believe that viking challenge was run also in a dynojet?
01-16-2005 01:11 AM
SaabTuner ---"when he won't go down the street and get his NON-MODIFIED viggen dynoed to prove it's stock...hmmm"---

Rob, I did get my STOCK Viggen dyno'd. It ran exactly 213 whp and 251 lb-ft. Did you totally forget about the dyno sheets I posted months ago?

Based on normal "measured" transmission loss for a 9-3, 213 whp is 260 crank hp. That's exactly what I'm claiming.

Adrian~
01-16-2005 01:08 AM
SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge
Adrian please explain the follwing

"That car appears to be running very poorly"

Dyno run was cut when hp curve pointed down in case you did not notice.
That car's torque curve did not in any way resemble the factory curve; it was erratic and unstable. The torque peak was also arouned 4000 RPM instead of 2000-2500 as would be expected given the factory measurements.

Now if you assume the factory measurements are not accurate, then you cannot use it to justify YOUR car's accuracy.

Adrian~

p.s. My car may not be the highest, but it's dead in the center for average as at the Viking challenge Viggens ran almost always beteween 212-214 whp. I think it is silly to question the results.
01-15-2005 02:09 PM
rcmdesign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge
But as we know Adrian does have the car with the most hp for a stock viggen...

01-15-2005 01:23 PM
Vigge About normal deviation in engines

if normal deviation is about 3hp then the follwoing will apply to a 200hp engine

Customers will get

2,5% will have 191-194hp
14% will have195-197hp
33,5% will have198-200hp
33,5% will have 201-203hp
14% will have204-206hp
2,5% will have207-209hp

this is why normally the taget is set a lilltle higher than 200hp for a 200hp engine. For intance if we raise the goal to 210 then 99.7% will have cars with 201hp or above.

But as we know Adrian does have the car with the most hp for a stock viggen...
01-15-2005 01:04 PM
Vigge Adrian please explain the follwing

"That car appears to be running very poorly"

Dyno run was cut when hp curve pointed down in case you did not notice.
01-15-2005 01:02 PM
Vigge
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
How about this link: http://www.ashill.org/saab/earr/elk3.txt

That's /John's 9-3 with a few mods. 202 whp @ 5321 RPM. "Measured" crank horsepower: 245.5.

That makes for 17.72% loss on a 9-3 transmission. And unlike your graph of that 9000, Vigge, his does not have MORE whp than crank hp.

BTW that same correction factor would put my Viggen at 259 crank hp.

Time to go back to the drawing board for you, Vigge!

Adrian~
Adrian one simple guestion, why are saabs always dynoed generally to more hp in the states? Is it the dyno jet, naah I dont think so....
01-15-2005 12:58 PM
Vigge
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge
Here is a another sheet from that same dyno. Its a modified 9000.
You can see the whp and calculated flywheel.
So long for the 18% losses...
I will ask the guy if he has my plots still in his systems, so I might be able to get my whp for you all to see.
[[/img]
Perhaps you'd like to explain how the wheel horsepower is GREATER than the crank horsepower in several places, Vigge? Nice try.

That's just plain foolish of either you or whomever told you it was crank versus wheel. Who told you that was wheel horsepower versus crank horsepower???

Adrian~
This info was from the guy who owns that car, not from me. I did not look at it that closely.
Like I said I maybe be able to get you my whp log, so lets see what we can get.
01-15-2005 12:18 PM
rcmdesign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge
First nothing is possible based on calculations filled with assumptions
Looks like SaabTuner is back with his long list of assumptions and calculations. I had this same arguement with him earlier when he first began posting here. He likes to take charts that he puts together on his free time and use them for his assumptions of how to modify his car to make it have more HP and make claims on the amount of horespower he has now when he won't go down the street and get his NON-MODIFIED viggen dynoed to prove it's stock...hmmm


Adrian please start posting charts and graphs with before and AFTER your modifications...Then we can see your before HP and after HP with proof, not assumptions and calculations...Often your posts are confusing as hell cause you like to post stats and graphs on your vehicle but with little explanation on what the hell this means for other Saab users. I mean can we take your stats and somehow modify our cars to make them better or are we just staring at what your car does and wishing...
01-15-2005 10:42 AM
SaabTuner Just for fun, here is where you can find lots of other Emerald dyno runs: http://www.saabscene.co.uk/ubb/ultim.../6.html#000131

I haven't plotted the losses for all of them since I was mainly concerned with the only 9-3 present. But you're welcome to check for yourself.

Adrian~
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