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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-10-2005 03:07 PM
SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehayes01
Good points on the metal condition Adrian. If you dont aneal or heat treat the Aluminum it will turn to crap on you!
Actually the "O" condition is a result of annealing and is the weakest of the "conditions". You need to heat temper the alloy to re-strengthen it after annealing it. You don't want the pipe on the car in the "O" (technically "F") annealed condition, generally because of the larger, less ordered, grain structure. (Permits intergrannular corrosion.)

More here: http://www.burnsstainless.com/TechAr...m_article.html



Adrian~
01-10-2005 02:49 PM
stevehayes01 Good points on the metal condition Adrian. If you dont aneal or heat treat the Aluminum it will turn to crap on you!
01-10-2005 02:39 PM
SaabTuner Stainless has one other advantage over aluminum:

When aluminum is mandrel bent it must be bent in the "O" condition; that is a weakened condition which makes it soft enough to bend. If it is not heat treated to a "T6" temper it is much weaker than stainless steel. Also you cannot polish un-treated aluminum while still in the "O" condition.

304 stainless with some insulating wrap is the way to go.

And yeah, rubber hoses don't last long. But they do perform VERY well until they finally corrode away. (Usually they last as long as the turbo does, so meh?)

Adrian~
01-10-2005 02:23 PM
stevehayes01 Now thats what I call an intercooler!!! What is the flow rate on that IC?
01-10-2005 02:01 PM
9-3 Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehayes01
Very nice IC delivery pipe mike. DId you fab it yourself or have it done? What noticeable gains did it net you?
I had it custom made after my drawings....
I did that change together with some other major changes.. so I can't tell you if it was because of the pipe or the massive IC i mounted at the same time.. But i notice easier breathing and more upper end torque and it kept the boost at higher revs..

the IC i mounted at the same time...
click
01-10-2005 01:04 PM
stevehayes01 Very nice IC delivery pipe mike. DId you fab it yourself or have it done? What noticeable gains did it net you?
01-10-2005 12:47 PM
9-3 Mike I'm using a 2,5" "one piece" stainless steel delivery pipe. Bigger isn't better.

I won't wrap my delivery pipe...

I made a custom 3" throttle body inlet pipe.
01-10-2005 12:36 PM
stevehayes01 I was quoted $125 for the IC to TB delivery pipe, $25 fo the Air Filter to Turbo Pipe with the sensor bungs welded on to it. You just need to make sure if that is the route you are going to make sure the shop will do all the necessary proper fitting and testing prior to taking delivery of it.
01-10-2005 12:25 PM
lemonscu What about using PVC or something along those lines to replace the stock delivery pipe? The main reason would be to get a larger diameter of course but It sounds like a bad idea when I say it out loud. Could exhaust shops make a delivery pipe out of stainless for cheap, if so has anyone had this done?
01-10-2005 11:39 AM
stevehayes01 If you look at intake tubing from companies like Injen, AEM and place like that you will see alot of different materials that are used to make intake piping and connectors. Sport Compact did a test on Intake temps and power using 6 different intakes from reputable companies and found that the straight Aluminum intakes held more heat than 2 that were stainless steel. the difference in heat was only 3 or 4 degree's less on the stainless steel ones but the one that had the coldest intake temps was the ICEMAN intake that is completley made of plastic. It showed something like 10 degrees difference in temp from the aluminum intakes and like 6 from the stainless ones. I will try to dig the article up and get the exact fugures for it. But the one thing they did recommend was a reflective thermal wrap placed on the metal intakes that would add another 2 or so degree's of cooling for the intake temps. This test was done on N/A cars so the intake temps are a little easier to control but I think the atricle illustrated a good point on material uses.

Do the stainless and wrap it with a reflective heat warap and you will do alright. You can get all the material you need on ebay for around $50 dollars for the intake tubing and then should not take much for a muffler shop to do your welding for you to get it all together.
01-10-2005 11:03 AM
DC_SAAB
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC_SAAB
The irony of it all to me is that those rubber hoses connecting the intercooler to the Delivery pipe is closest to where the heat actually comes from...the turbo and downpipe. I'd say wrapping those would probably help more.

I tried some braided stainless, then wrapped it with tape, to keep the hoses from flexing and heating up too much, but now switching to solid custom aluminum intercooler piping to wrap.
Err ... rubber is actually a fairly good insulator. You'd be a step behind using solid aluminum with just heat wrap; the rubber would insulate better. Put some aluminum foil over the rubber to reflect radiant heat and you'd basically have a hose MADE of the same thing as heat wrap. (Rubber to resist conductive heat, and aluminum to reflect the radiant. Good combo.)

Remember that aluminum is one of the best conductors of heat, and should be avoided anywhere you don't want heat to be conducted. (If possible.) That's why T7 Saabs went to the plastic pipe. (It's not significantly lighter, or more durable, nor does it flow better, but it insulates nicely.)

Silicone does not insulate much better than rubber, and it's much thinner, which means it will conduct more heat.

Adrian~

p.s. Silicone is pretty bling bling though. www.turbohoses.come has some nice silicone hoses too. If you're going to use metal, I reccomend a grade of stainless, ceramic coated if possible. THAT would be a nice, high flowing, reasonably good insulating, pipe.
Agree with your assessment in general.., however rubber flexes and breaks down, and tends to soften up, and contributes to lag over time. But also has the potential to rob your peak boost levels.

But when comparing aluminum to stainless, and thinking about it more, the stainless may be the better way to go, because I considered wrapping aluminum as the cheaper solution to reflect the heat out. Okay, might as well change that and stop being cheap....stainless it is.
01-10-2005 10:37 AM
SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC_SAAB
The irony of it all to me is that those rubber hoses connecting the intercooler to the Delivery pipe is closest to where the heat actually comes from...the turbo and downpipe. I'd say wrapping those would probably help more.

I tried some braided stainless, then wrapped it with tape, to keep the hoses from flexing and heating up too much, but now switching to solid custom aluminum intercooler piping to wrap.
Err ... rubber is actually a fairly good insulator. You'd be a step behind using solid aluminum with just heat wrap; the rubber would insulate better. Put some aluminum foil over the rubber to reflect radiant heat and you'd basically have a hose MADE of the same thing as heat wrap. (Rubber to resist conductive heat, and aluminum to reflect the radiant. Good combo.)

Remember that aluminum is one of the best conductors of heat, and should be avoided anywhere you don't want heat to be conducted. (If possible.) That's why T7 Saabs went to the plastic pipe. (It's not significantly lighter, or more durable, nor does it flow better, but it insulates nicely.)

Silicone does not insulate much better than rubber, and it's much thinner, which means it will conduct more heat.

Adrian~

p.s. Silicone is pretty bling bling though. www.turbohoses.come has some nice silicone hoses too. If you're going to use metal, I reccomend a grade of stainless, ceramic coated if possible. THAT would be a nice, high flowing, reasonably good insulating, pipe.
01-10-2005 06:47 AM
ERP
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC_SAAB
When you consider that the hoses in and out of the intercooler are rubber, I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone making custom piping to deliver the boost more efficiently.
I just upgraded these pipes this weekend. I replaced the pipes between the intercooler and throttle body with 2.5 Stainless steel. My intercooler has 2.5" connections and the throttle body is a little over 2.5". It looks great. Boost lag was not increased at all and I gained 1.5-2 psi on the high end. Should have more pictures soon.

01-10-2005 05:58 AM
DC_SAAB The irony of it all to me is that those rubber hoses connecting the intercooler to the Delivery pipe is closest to where the heat actually comes from...the turbo and downpipe. I'd say wrapping those would probably help more.

I tried some braided stainless, then wrapped it with tape, to keep the hoses from flexing and heating up too much, but now switching to solid custom aluminum intercooler piping to wrap.

When you consider that the hoses in and out of the intercooler are rubber, I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone making custom piping to deliver the boost more efficiently.

But if anyone is interested, I'll have some copies made from the ones I'm having done on my car. It will most likely use silicon connector sleeves.

regards
01-10-2005 05:38 AM
Ragtop Tiger I put Thermo Tec Tape on my delivery pipe. Can't say I notice a difference, but Thermo Tec claims it is a great insulator. I am sure it doesn't hurt and I like how it liooks. I also replaced the tubing for the BPV with silicone hose that I bought from Nick.
01-07-2005 11:11 PM
ricot83 i applied a light coat of ceramic paint to the inlet pipe to keep heat out and also wrapped the delivery pipe
01-07-2005 06:24 PM
lemonscu Thanks, that clears things up. I was under the impression that the temperature leaving the intercooler would be greater than that in the engine bay.
01-07-2005 05:15 PM
SaabTuner After the intercooler the temps in the intake usually peak around 120-140F, whereas underhood temps are 180-200F.

Before the intercooler it's still good to insulate because when you're just cruising you don't want any heat from the engine bay constantly heat-soaking the intercooler before you ever get a chance to get on boost.

Here's a typical boost versus intake air temp log from my Viggen. The ambient temperature was around 55*F. The blue is intake absolute pressure in kilopascals, and the pink is intake temp in fahrenheit.



Adrian~
01-07-2005 04:58 PM
Coops93 I too have done this on mine but i also wrapped the pipe that leads to the intercooler. It has always been my understanding that wrapping a pipe with insulation keeps the pipe material from absorbing the heat from the engine bay. I have goten out of my car after driving it and the grill feels like it could cook bacon on it.

Basically just insulating the cool air charge so that it does not have to pass through a pipe thats 150 degrees <pulled a random number off top of head> cause i know a couple of the pipes pass right past the turbine housing would think that would be a heat source. but anyway thats mostly my understanding so lol someone will probally come along and add to it or correct me.
01-07-2005 02:17 PM
lemonscu
Wrapped delivery pipe?

I wrapped my delivery pipe but after thinking about it, why does this help? The pipe comes from the intercooler which would mean and the heat in the engine bay is not that extreme compared to turbo temps. It seems like more heat would be kept in than actually be kept from getting in. If someone could clarify I would appreciate it.

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