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Thread: Explanation about off the shelf tunes...are they all the same? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-27-2014 05:19 AM
lms I have a road tune by frank, back when he was, "the man". Pretty good tune, by the way, but he also spent hours on the road tuning it. I bet it could be better now if someone else took a look at the files with all the knowledge that is out there. I have had it for 7 years now, at times when I get on it I think, hmmmm, that's weird.lol
03-26-2014 04:29 PM
DrewP Haha. Haven't heard anything about their stuff in a looooong time.
03-26-2014 01:54 PM
Saabeh
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewP View Post
...And SQR still does...
ftfy
03-26-2014 01:22 PM
DrewP ...And SQR...
03-26-2014 08:40 AM
lms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowcat77 View Post
A good tune will use both, I think the point he is trying to make is to avoid tunes that simply rely on brute force of high boost pressures to make power gains. Similar to how MBC is not recommended.
This was the old way that John would tune.
03-25-2014 04:44 PM
Drew in Houston I think stebd has some really great questions
03-25-2014 04:20 PM
Snowcat77
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevbd View Post
What are the pros and cons of using boost vs timing to make power, and who uses which approach? Thanks.
A good tune will use both, I think the point he is trying to make is to avoid tunes that simply rely on brute force of high boost pressures to make power gains. Similar to how MBC is not recommended.
03-25-2014 05:25 AM
stevbd
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike d View Post
these days differences between tunes person to person is simply how far they want to push boost, advance timing. and lean out mixtures. Some people like to crank pressure beyond any acceptable point. others keep it down, and try to make power in timing.
What are the pros and cons of using boost vs timing to make power, and who uses which approach? Thanks.
03-24-2014 05:22 PM
mikefromearth This is all super interesting info.

The biggest thing I take away from this is that I need to befriend Drew and make a trip to Houston at some point
03-24-2014 06:26 AM
Saabeh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew in Houston View Post
That said, it gets a little dicey when people begin to take-advantage and monetize the work of others, and when that happens I think that generally depresses the effort. And there are always quality control issues..
That happens in every industry, it seems like a special case for open-source software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew in Houston View Post
What open source stuff are you involved-with?
I work at a large Linux company that is listed on the NYSE, should be able to figure it out . Small companies start up all the time that re-brand and sell our software. This isn't necessarily a problem because even the small companies can make developmental improvements to the software that can then be added to ours, upstream.

But then there are companies like Oracle that take a linux distribution (usually ours), re-brand it as "Oracles's Unbreakable Linux," and sell it to customers with no actual improvements or new features.
03-22-2014 05:38 PM
Drew in Houston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saabeh View Post
I was honestly trying to gauge your feelings on the open-source community as a whole, it's what I do for work.
I support open source efforts in general. Linux and other efforts like that are awesome. Totally looked like some begging the question to me.

That said, it gets a little dicey when people begin to take-advantage and monetize the work of others, and when that happens I think that generally depresses the effort. And there are always quality control issues..

What open source stuff are you involved-with?
03-22-2014 01:40 PM
Saabeh I was honestly trying to gauge your feelings on the open-source community as a whole, it's what I do for work.
03-21-2014 03:21 PM
Drew in Houston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saabeh View Post
How do you feel about people who make money from tuning in general? Lots of open-course/freeware software being used to make money in the Subaru and Honda worlds. How do you feel about open-source software in general?

Also, in order to complete a good basic tune on a car you need a large shop and hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment?
Let me rephrase your question and pass it back to you: Do you think a large shop with thousands of dollars worth of instrumentation (and people who have studied and know how to apply it) can produce a better quality product compared to no shop and no equipment? What about liability for the quality of their product? In which scenario does the owner/operator have more at stake?

That first question? What kind of question is that? I invented the website that was the catalyst for opening Saab tuning; I thought of it while I was taking a shower. It was my idea. I named it. I spent $1000's gathering and then made public the original source information. You're going to challenge me about open tuning?? ---again, just to clarify, I did NOT do the heavy lifting on the coding/tech side---

But script-kiddie-tuners just need to realize that they're script-kiddie-tuners and take it easy on the e-swagger a little, what do I care if they make money doing it?

edit: In all seriousness, it was nice meeting you in person, and I'm really not trying to be confrontational, just trying to bring a little perspective to things. The world is big, and just because hard core tech people aren't posting a lot (they usually get shouted down), doesn't mean that they don't exist. So I think I'm just going to bow out of this thread now. Have a great weekend everyone!
03-21-2014 02:49 PM
Saabeh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew in Houston View Post
It's really interesting and cool seeing how this whole thing has played-out, some of it predictable, other things not so much. The effect of making the barrier-to-entry so incredibly low that it created a whole cast of script-kiddie-tuners strutting around like a bunch of little roosters, actually selling "tunes" for money(!), was something I don't think anyone considered or planned.
How do you feel about people who make money from tuning in general? Lots of open-course/freeware software being used to make money in the Subaru and Honda worlds. How do you feel about open-source software in general?

Also, in order to complete a good basic tune on a car you need a large shop and hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment?
03-21-2014 02:45 PM
mike d Every tuner does things a little differently, in my experience any of the older pre 2008 tunes are scary, and should not be run on a car. I've seen some things in older software that i am amazed they got away with, without blowing more motors.

these days differences between tunes person to person is simply how far they want to push boost, advance timing. and lean out mixtures. Some people like to crank pressure beyond any acceptable point. others keep it down, and try to make power in timing.

The other large difference is what people call a stage, i wonder why a stage 2 can be run on a bone stock car. Does that mean stage 1 is for a car that's worse than stock?? I've always felt like every stage should have a noticeable hardware change to go with it.

as Casey says, call around, there are a ton of options, and most of us are pretty friendly people, If possible go local with whoever it is, In person tunes ALWAYS see better results. Its amazing what i see roll in every day, and catch on a pre-tune inspection
03-21-2014 12:26 PM
Drew in Houston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saabeh View Post
Theoretically they could all be very similar
Right here's ↑ the part that makes most sense to me.

Until someone goes in there and improves/manipulates the actual machine coding, and knows and appreciates what re-compiling might mean, everyone, and I mean everyone, is just messing around within the constraints allowed and designed by the original guys. And believe it, it's difficult to even get close to the level of refinement achieved by the original guys. Especially when you start talking on/off transient responses, compensations, etc.

All these big-head "tuners" running around have probably never even seen a real engine test lab, let alone even know that things like cold rooms exist, let alone step foot inside one to do any real measurements on anything. Truth is, I wouldn't let any of those guys, except maybe Nick at Genuine Saab, touch any of my cars. He's not degreed as far as I know, but I've met the man and he has the snap and initiative to educate himself and also takes the correct methodical data driven approach, and has also shown understanding and commitment by investing in real equipment to get some type of quantitative idea about what he's messing with.

It's really interesting and cool seeing how this whole thing has played-out, some of it predictable, other things not so much. The effect of making the barrier-to-entry so incredibly low that it created a whole cast of script-kiddie-tuners strutting around like a bunch of little roosters, actually selling "tunes" for money(!), was something I don't think anyone considered or planned.

But, you know, it's out of the box now, and it sure did fix the price gouging problem lol (as well as the quality of tunes available).
03-21-2014 11:43 AM
Saabeh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew in Houston View Post
I'm going to go ahead and suggest that most all the stage 1/2/3 "tunes" that people are supposedly "making" are all copies or close derivations of the canned "tunes" from T5 and T7Suite software.

Or copies of older crappier stuff from back in the old price gouging days when a hot setup, with "Green Giant" injectors that were still >50% too small went for like $2k before you were finished
This may have been the case back when T5/7 Suite was new, but these days the tuners I have seen make their own files. Theoretically they could all be very similar but you'll really see someone's tuning skill beyond the 1/2/3 level.
03-21-2014 10:50 AM
Drew in Houston I'm suuuuuuuper curious what makes "your" tunes unique. Mind sending one over so I can take a look at it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit View Post
We add tuning guidelines and hardware requirements so people know what to shoot for for running our staged tunes. In addition if someone has a 3" downpipe, but only wants stage 2, then they do not get the standard stage2, we will make some adjustments for the downpipe. Same goes for most other 'extra' hardware mods that are above the minimum requirements, we will make changes accordingly. I see the canned stages as a starting point from a known set of hardware and software, and we can adapt that to what is actually on the car.

All tuners set the stages and hardware list a bit differently and I would argue that most of us tuners are so far removed from anything autotuned at this point....although it is still happening and it's very obvious when one of those graces my tuning bench.

Honestly, if you want to get a better feel for how the tuners do their thing, give them a call or email and talk about it.
03-21-2014 10:48 AM
Drew in Houston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Progression View Post
Great point about dyno'ing. Road tune would be my obvious choice, but all tuners are way too far away. I'm near Vancouver BC so we got Hayes in Los Angeles, JZW in CO?, Mike in MA, and of course Drew in TX.

Yeah I didn't mean/intend to make the thread out to be like the tuners just flip on computer, toss on the tune, mail it back because it is quite simple to do if you have done it enough. My intention was just as stated, being about hardware since I want to make sure I don't fubar my car due to lack of support or whatever.
Flattered to be in that group, but just to be clear, I don't tune cars for people. Sometimes I help people who want to learn about it, but I've never sold a tune. Maybe someday, but I don't need the headaches or liability. I've considered it in the past, but the main idea of ECUProject was to stop the price gouging, and selfishly, so that I could tune my own Saab.

edit: Just to expand, building the tools to do things like un-compress firmware, or navigate checksums is no trivial task and is light years more difficult than applying "tunes" or modifying a spark advance map. It's like the difference between watching TV and building a TV.
03-21-2014 07:56 AM
rabbit We add tuning guidelines and hardware requirements so people know what to shoot for for running our staged tunes. In addition if someone has a 3" downpipe, but only wants stage 2, then they do not get the standard stage2, we will make some adjustments for the downpipe. Same goes for most other 'extra' hardware mods that are above the minimum requirements, we will make changes accordingly. I see the canned stages as a starting point from a known set of hardware and software, and we can adapt that to what is actually on the car.

All tuners set the stages and hardware list a bit differently and I would argue that most of us tuners are so far removed from anything autotuned at this point....although it is still happening and it's very obvious when one of those graces my tuning bench.

Honestly, if you want to get a better feel for how the tuners do their thing, give them a call or email and talk about it.
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