|01-20-2014 09:19 AM|
Just for reference, I got terrible city fuel mileage (10-15 MPG, measured, not SID display) in my well-maintained and gently driven 2000 Saab 9-3 "S" while living in San Francisco. However, highway MPG would easily be 28+ very often 30+.
I had my mechanic check and he found no problems.
However, in SF, most of in-town driving was short distances, with frequent stop signs or traffic lights, and unusual to get the car out of 3rd gear.
Now I'm living in Los Angeles, in-town driving here is actually less stop-and-go (for me), and my "city" mileage is in the 20s.
FYI - I use premium (91) fuel exclusively.
|01-19-2014 04:08 PM|
|Hooked on turbo||
Thanks for the replies. I ordered an OBD2 scanner before Christmas but someone stole it out of my mailbox (!) I ordered another one which should arrive this week. So I haven't actually had a chance to try one out. Thanks for the tips, Craig.
I'm beginning to wonder if I'm in for continued fuel (in)efficiency troubles if our driving habits include many short drives which end before the engine is warmed up. We live in a pretty residential part of town - lots of stop lights, stop signs, idling, etc.
Here is some data from a short drive I took today, which is pretty typical:
3.4 miles traveled. travel time 14 minutes. Average speed 13 mph. Fuel efficiency (reset at start of trip) 12.4 mpg. Outside temp 37F. Heat inside was on very low.
Is this normal?
|01-17-2014 09:20 AM|
Have you been using an obd2 scanner?
Things to look at:
Front o2 sensor cycling: is it slow, or in a limited range?
Water temp: Should show pretty steadily between 88-100* celcius, or 180-210*F
Intake air temp: There's 2. at the MAF and at the manifold. Really, both should be close to ambient air temps. The manifold temp sensor could be 10-20* higher than the outside air if you're moving slowly.
Airmass: you might not know exactly what you're looking for here, but it's important you don't see wild swings in readings while cruising. seeing big changes with steady throttle usually means dying MAF
Long term fuel trim: This is the car's reaction to the outputs of the sensors. a negative fuel trim means the ECU is pulling fuel because it thinks it's running rich. A positive means the ECU is adding fuel because it thinks it's running lean. Plus-or-minus 5 is pretty standard. the closer to zero, the better.
|01-17-2014 03:47 AM|
Totally depends on the first minutes of your drive, time is not really relevant because of coasting and idling.
Agreed tho, 10 miles or less.
|01-17-2014 02:52 AM|
With mine, it's within 5 minutes of driving.
Certainly <10miles. I tend to keep the heat off until the car's warm, though.
|01-17-2014 02:43 AM|
|mike d||not sure about the open to closed look transition, however i can tell you that the ECU bases this on coolant temp. and usually issues like this relate bad to a failed thermostat and/or coolant temp sensor. Replace them both at the same time.|
|01-16-2014 10:44 AM|
|Hooked on turbo||A question for you all, please - starting from cold, how long (in time or distance) does it take for your 9-5 engines to get to closed loop? And in that time/distance, how rich do your engines run? Current January data would be great to compare to, because I'm still not convinced the problem with my car's been solved... thanks!|
|12-15-2013 05:58 AM|
|Hooked on turbo||
The city driving we do is just regular stop and go; not usually in a hurry to get to the next stop sign. And I also don't believe that would (on its own) cause 12 mpg. We put in premium fuel (which is 91 here in Canada).
I just ordered this OBD2:
Amazon.com: Super Mini ELM327 Bluetooth OBD-II OBD Can with Power Switch ELM 327 OBD2 Diagnostic Interface: Car Electronics
|12-13-2013 04:39 AM|
you can buy lots of obd scanners. When I had my Volvo and DSM, I used an old m105 palm pilot and obdgauge.com's software.
Now, I use the Android app "torque" and a bluetooth adapter. I'm able to look at all the car's stuff on my phone. You could use a tablet, too. and I'm pretty sure there's an Ios version, too.
This is the OBDII adapter I purchased. People have said it's a knock-off and whatnot, but mine works perfectly.
Amazon.com: Super Mini ELM327 V1.5 OBD2 OBD-II Bluetooth CAN-BUS Auto Diagnostic Tool for Windows XP, Vista, Win7, OSX and Android: Car Electronics
|12-12-2013 01:12 PM|
keep in mind warming up the car to get into "closed loop" is going to use gas just sitting there which will defeat the purpose of doing it.
also remember it has the two options for a reason so you dont cause major engine damage.
do you drive agressively light to light? with acceleration to fast speed each stop and go? or just simple driving.
stop and go city is the absolute worst on MPGs and will be very low if that is all you do. also the grade of fuel you use will make a difference.
|12-12-2013 10:37 AM|
Also worth trying, next time you go on a long trip, try clearing your SID or calculating your mileage to see where it is.
If your trips are short enough that you never get the car warmed up, yes, you will burn more fuel, but probably not to the point of 12 mpg.
|12-12-2013 10:35 AM|
Is your temp gauge at half? If not, you probably have a bad thermostat.
If it is at half, you could still have a bad thermostat. Tech II can read actual temperature. Where modern temp gauges on the dash peg right to the middle as long as the temp is within some predefined range.
Don't even think about tuning or even google "tuning" until you get everything running right
|12-12-2013 08:54 AM|
Before tuning, I'd have someone with a Tech 2 check the coolant temp sensor and the intake air temp sensor.
Back in the old days (gets pipe, settles down in rocker)...coolant systems were a bit more primitive and used to develop scale and deposits just from the interaction of the chemicals and the metals. Sometimes the thermostat would stick open and make the car take much longer to warm up, keeping the car in open loop a lot longer. Might be a good idea to also check/replace the thermostat.
|12-12-2013 08:20 AM|
|Hooked on turbo||
You wrote: "This is where you ECU is when your car is too cold, too hot, is loaded (boost/acceleration) is in high MPH, or >20% throttle position. This is what tuners tune." What/who are the tuners you refer to? Does that mean that tuners can adjust engine setting so the car gets into closed loop faster (and stays there) for city driving?
Also, when you have a chance, could you please post the details on the OBD2 logger and bluetooth OBD2 plug? (Are these two separate devices?)
|12-10-2013 11:02 AM|
|12-10-2013 10:42 AM|
|Hooked on turbo||I haven't actually seen a CEL yet, but I've only had the car 2 weeks. The fuel level sensor failed two days after I bought the car, but that's since been replaced. When your temp sensor was failing, how did you know?|
|12-10-2013 10:26 AM|
Im also from Toronto, my stage 3 aero gets about 9-10 L/100km on the highway on cruise and 11-12L/100km city but i always drive fairly aggressively, the best things i can think of, is check for boost leaks, fuel filter, bad plugs and a failing 02 sensor. I also had the temp sensor slowly fade causing the car to think it was warming up constantly and that wastes A LOT of gas.
When was the last time you had a CEL and what was it?
|12-10-2013 10:16 AM|
I can answer all: 27mpg highway is still pretty low. I have a short commute, and my SID reads a pretty consistant 24mpg mixed. part of this is because of tune, and part because of how I drive, but if you're not driving a modied 9-5, you should expect 29-31mpg highway. (maybe more)
Open loop and closed loop are just the different operating climates of the ECU.
Closed loop is when the ECU ignores Everything but the oxygen sensors. The ECU is making adjustments to fuel trims based soley on the feedback from the Oxygen sensors to reach 14.7:1 air-fuel, or Stoichiometric...
This is typically in operating situations of low-risk. (full operating temp, no load, low RPM, low vehicle speed, little-to-no throttle) these are situations where the ECU thinks it's safe to run less fuel because there's no chance of engine damage. This is your idling, your highway cruising, and really low throttle imput (no boost) for the most part, the ECU can compensate for bad sensors, but there are things like exhaust leaks and some vacuum leaks that can cause fuel trims to go way-off. for instance, a leak in the exhaust before the first o2 sensor will allow clean air in, and trick the sensor into thinking the car is running lean, so it will add fuel to compensate. This will cause MPG's to be off. A failing oxygen sensor could be cycling slowly, or reporting incorrect information back to the ECU. again, it'll throw off fuel-trims.
Open loop, the ECU is reading the multiple sensors to calculate the air mass entering the engine and fuel accordingly. This mode ignores the oxygen sensors and fuels accordingly to reach a target Air-flow ratio, which has been user-entered (factory entered).
This is where you ECU is when your car is too cold, too hot, is loaded (boost/acceleration) is in high MPH, or >20% throttle position. This is what tuners tune.
The down-side is that while reading the air temps, the inlet pressure, the engine temp, knock, and barometric pressure if any of those sensors are reading incorreclty, it throws off the air-fuel ratios and causes the car to run poorly.(too rich/too lean) depending on the sensor, it can cause the ECU to run in open loop when it's not supposed to, and THEN run poorly, on top of that.
Having the scanner allows you to see the sensors operate, and if you know what you're SUPPOSED to see, you can tell if a sensor is reading incorrectly. I will post the plug I bought from ebay in a few minutes. Gotta get back to work.
here's more info from a mustang forum. the basics apply.
Definition of Closed Loop vs Open Loop
|12-10-2013 09:26 AM|
|Hooked on turbo||
Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I have some more questions.
I took the car out for an hour on the highway at 75 mph and the SID was pretty steady around 27 MPG, which was encouraging... and it pretty much lines up with how much gas I seem to have used (I didn't fill up to confirm, but the fuel gauge has been pretty accurate so far).
Mike S - most of my city trips are 10-20 mins, in stop and go traffic, with some idling. I'm not really getting the point of an engine running in open loop. But more importantly - is there any way to get it to closed loop faster? Would letting the car warm up for 5-10 mins before taking it out be helpful?
Craig - I get that having an OBD2 would give me info like O2 sensor voltage cycles, engine temps, ignition advance, long and short fuel trims (still getting clear on what those all mean) - but I'm not clear how it will help fix the lower MPG? Is it about quicker and more precise identification of where the problem is? Also, do you have a recommendation for an OBD2 logger and bluetooth OBD2 plug?
|12-10-2013 05:23 AM|
|Tweek's Turbos||Buy some silicone vac hose and check all the lines. Specifically the bitch to get at one between the fuel pressure regulater and wherever it goes. (forgot) It is only about 2 inches long and was the most brittle on my 07.|
|This thread has more than 20 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.|