|08-15-2004 01:23 PM|
|culetto||in regards to changing out to a different cam how is the T-7 going to react to this, im starting to think i would rather buy a full race ecu and tune it from scratch than try to make the mommy t-7 happy if its really as touchy as the impression im getting from all these posts|
|07-26-2004 11:02 PM|
Ask for a catalog from them, they have full built naturally aspirated Race Saab 2.0's pushing 273 horses. Only for racing of course, but you get the picture!
Pistons were $380-450 a set I think. And stage two Saab non-turbo 2.0 (from the old 900 cars) rated at 198 horses was $5000 or so including labor to assemble it. They have more than 20 years of experience in imported engines.
They also have Titanium connecting rods for SAABS! Very cool. But those are $500 a PIECE. :O
I've had a few long conversations via e-mail with one of the guys there. They're GREAT about customer service.
They'll also make special cams for turbo applications and again, because it doesn't take them any more physical labor, they won't charge you more.
|07-26-2004 09:09 PM|
|Clint||Very good stuff. I didnt realize companys would build internals for that cheap. I mean..some of it is expensive, but they will make a mold and not charge you extra. It seems that cams from them are a way to go. I was about to think they were out of the picture because nick taliafero quoted $900 a set. That price is a little high. Have you asked paeco about prices for other parts like pistons or a clutch? If so, what was the reply?|
|07-26-2004 08:02 AM|
Lots of places will make custom cams for about $400 for a set of two. Paeco.com is one place. The build lots of race engines too. Good stuff.
|07-26-2004 07:50 AM|
|Clint||OK, gotcha now. Do you know of any other cams we can put in our car? I have been wondering if we could use the Ecotec cams in our cars. If that is so, we could just find a place that specializes in new Cavaliers. What do you think SaabTuner?|
|07-26-2004 04:44 AM|
|Tweek's Turbos||The member posting above as "SaabTuner".|
|07-25-2004 09:24 PM|
|Clint||Hey Tweek...when you say you got the advice from a Saab tuner who are you refering to? I am doing the exact same upgrade to my car.|
|07-07-2004 04:46 PM|
Great posts, Tweek and Adrian...
Answered all of my questions....
|07-06-2004 05:35 PM|
The amount the cams add in hp is not huge on the older 2.3 and 2.0 engines from the NG900. 15 hp would be a reasonable estimate if no other changes are made and it's a stock car.
Asking for specific hp numbers can be somewhat misleading. Turbo engines are better thought of as efficient hot gas generators for the turbine ( the turbo) and as such, better cams just alter the pressure ratio on the turbo, making it more efficient. On a turbocharged engine typically if your head does not flow well you can up the boost a little to make up for it since the knock limit is more dependant on overal power/cyllinder rather than boost (which is directly related, but the costant of the relation shanges with headflow etc).
What chamshafts will really do is reduce the boost pressure you need to run to reach a specific power output. This reduces backpressure because the turbo does not have to pump as hard,
Realistically you should only get the camshafts if you're going to be replacing the head and doing other headwork anyway. Since it should cost about the same for naturally aspirated camshafts compared to turbo cams, you get a little more hp for the same money.
Because turbo engines are so complex it's still hard to give exact figures. There are better mods for the money if that's what you're looking for. But they do still flow more, and they do also still maintain good emmissions and idle quality. But they are just a step in the process.
Tweek is going down a fairly good route. Headers + cams + head work + intake = good power at relatively low boost. That setup reduces lag because you don't need to boost as high, keeps cyllinder temps down due to proper scavenging, and helps reduce the overal turbo operating ratio. Good stuff.
~Those of you with 2.3L who do lots of headwork and upgrade camshafts will need a better flowing intercooler than the stock NG900/Viggen/9000Aero intercoolers. This is because the volume the engine takes in is increase. Even if the horsepower does not change the engine still takes in more air, and the intercooler will need to be able to flow it. Those with a 2.0 should be fine with the stock or Viggen unit in regards to flow. Cooling is subjective.~
|07-06-2004 05:20 PM|
how much does just those cams add in HP numbers?
I would possibly do this later on is the results are good
|07-06-2004 03:36 PM|
I looked at the PN and the head and valves are the same. Obviosly the Viggen got the Nimonic alloy valves. I plan on using that very head on the car.
Burnsides, you know I'll be there. Also look for the Adirondack Saab Run by NYSOC.
I plan on a budget of about $700 or so for headwork, (bought a car from them expect small favor) and $900 or so for the header. I will need to see if they want the header and intake manifold b4 they do the work.
|07-06-2004 03:00 PM|
|BurnsSide42||Nice find man - can't wait to see your ng900 when you finally finish it :P I guess that''ll be the day we see a bumper cover on it (and then some little old woman backs into it ) I know how our luck goes... but HOPEFULLY that doesn't happen. Good luck dude - can't wait to see your Saab again soon at Saabtoberfest?|
|07-06-2004 02:40 PM|
Also, while every online Saab site lists that the exhaust valves are the same between turbo and non-turbo for the NG900's, you may find that you want to be especially cautious and use a turbo head, but with the Naturally Aspirated cams. Just in case the exhaust valves are indeed different.
It's up to you. You might try looking up part numbers etc. The cams are what you really want anyway, the rest of the head on the naturally aspirated is no better and possibly worse (though I would assume the rest of the head is identical).
|07-06-2004 02:30 PM|
Lookin' gooooood, if I do say so myself.
~Disclaimer: Any change to any internal part should be followed by a dyno session to make sure it's safe, and may not give any increase in hp what so ever without proper tuning. This is especially true of Trionic 7 cars, which do not like modifications much.~
Those cams are only slightly better than the stock B2x4 cams, MUCH better than the Viggen cams, and either way will alter your Volumetric Efficiency. On the MAP sensor'd cars that will cause the A/F ratio to lean out ever so slightly at high end. On a stock car that would compound the increase in power, on an already aggresively tuned car it will need to be tuned back to the already good a/f ratio.
For Viggen owners, the advantages of the B234i camshafts can be increased with the use of any B2X4 car's valvesprings (just make sure those are new, used ones will be tired and worn a little). The Viggen got lighter valves, less agressive cams, and softer springs. It improved mileage by reducing camshaft frictional losses.
I'll try to sum things up. Sometimes the way I word things gets confusing (or so I've been told) ... so here goes:
People with a B234 or B204 will see roughly a 7% increase in airflow at 5,500 RPM with with naturally aspirated camshafts. The cams will perform at least slightly better from 4,500 up. 2.3L engines will see more improvement as they have the same head/valvetrain as 2.0L engines, and have to take in more air. The 2.0 engine will need a 7K+ redline to REALLY appreciate these camshafts ... but once those revs are achieved the cams should be good up to 8K or more with proper valve springs. They will also keep a stock sounding idle/emmissions, which cannot be said of other upgraded cams.
The B2X5 engines had lots of variants when it comes to camshafts. Even though the Viggen got pretty poor cams, it has the best cams from a NEW generation cast Iron Saab engine series.
The B205R (found in the 205 hp 2.0 from 2001-2002) will see a very large increase in top end (if tuned properly) but may see substantially more boost lag.
The B235R will find even more top end (again if tuned correctly) without any significant decrease in torque (only slight) but a noticable increase in boost lag. The lag can be made up for by switching to a high flow intercooler and exhaust.
The B235E will see good increases as well as the other models, but again will require tuning. If it's stock you should seek other upgrades first for certain.
Anyhow ... lookin' good Tweek. I can't wait for the results!! Try to get some new valvesprings (or upgraded ones) ... valve springs often wear out, and they should be changed any time you pick up a second hand head.
|07-06-2004 12:55 PM|
Did you hear about the head I got today?
Following SaabTuner's advice, I found a head, and set of cams from a 2.3NA car.
I picked up the set today from Tired Iron, a small local dealer/repair/dismantler. Cost was $400. I plan on having a local racing shop port and polish, along with back-cut the valves. The cams are also supposed to add some juice with the NA profile they have.
I will get pics of the actual intake and exhaust paths later on. I expect this project to last about a year.
I plan to add this in conjuction with the exhaust header Nick at GenuineSaab has available.