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Performance Modifications for the NG900 / Old 9-3 This forum contains PERFORMANCE related Q&A's for the NG900 and 9-3. This may also include suspension.

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Thread: Head porting - DONE! Block balancing and rebuild - DONE! Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-23-2004 10:28 AM
Blaque Kevin, I may have a guy that can do Carbon Fiber. He does overlaying pretty well and he said he can do molding, but prefers not.

If you want I can give you his info so you can contact him.
07-23-2004 09:34 AM
KevinY I just liked the different texture even though it comes a little close to "pimp my ride", but I think it will look great once the full interior is together. Also, I had seen it in a few cars at a show and it inspired me. Will I do it again, not sure. Will have to see what the final product looks like. I am off on the carbon fiber thing now. Having been frustrated with finding someone to do the carbon fiber work, I am trying it myself. I put together a DI cover that I had been working on last night and will post some pics once the epoxy cures.

Regards,
Kevin
07-23-2004 05:44 AM
Tweek's Turbos I think it brings it upscale a bit. Something we have been lacking even with our cars price ranges.

I drove a few MBWs the other day for Drive for a cure. The steering wheels use sued, and I remember when the S4 came out, sued was used in the seats.

xaamottomaax, that was the funiest thing I have read today.
07-22-2004 07:39 PM
Blaque Lol yea i do have to ask....lol....what pursuaded you to go Ultrasuede? Heh not like I have a problem with it, its just ultrasuede doesn't suddenly pop into my mind when I think of a Saab dash.
07-22-2004 06:06 PM
xaamottomaax When you have 450hp and an ultrasuede dash , it doesnt matter which program you use!
07-22-2004 04:45 PM
KevinY T7, who needs the stinking T7?

Just kidding, trying to get you all going! Each system just presents obstacles to overcome, some more difficult than others, but not insurmountable. Also, you might notice that some of the most knowledgeable people can talk in the simplest terms. This is often a sign of true understanding. OK, enough of that, I am starting to cry.
07-22-2004 03:46 PM
mike saunders Apologies for the appearance of a threadjack....My post was only tangentially related....
07-22-2004 03:13 PM
SaabTuner Go here: https://www.saablink.net/TSL/saabforu...?p=15114#15114

I'll try to answer ... let's get a discussion outta Kevin's thread.

Adrian~
07-22-2004 03:07 PM
xaamottomaax Fellas, find a different thread OK? If you feel the topic has exhausted your interest, find a different topic. Some of us actually WANT to know the intricacies of Trionic 7 and this is why we have forums. The 6 pages of Hudson Valley Dyno Day posts and instructions on how to paint your spark plug cap solar yellow might bore me but I don't complain because...this is why we have forums.

Adrian, bear with me here as I try to get an understanding on some things...My specialty is sales and not engineering or physics so I have lots of catching up to do. Hopefully you can appreciate a good discussion where you are giving information more than receiving or even exchanging information.

Quote:
Opening the intake could throw off the readings even worse by altering the shape of the airflow over the hot wire. It usually isn't a problem, but be careul.
By "shape of the airflow" do you mean the density and rate at which it passes the hot wire? If not, what does this mean? If so, how would either of these throw off the readings when the MAF sensor is measuring the mass of the air? The air has a mass regardless of the manner in which it passes the hot wire and I don't see how opening would change things. How is opening the intake any different in regards to VE than a difference in outside air temp or elevation? There are always going to be slight variations in VE if this is the case. If it is not the case, changing the ease of which air reaches the turbo (not changing the amount of air that can pass through the intake AFTER the turbo) should not have an effect on the VE either. The fact that the turbo doesnt have to work as hard to reach a target boost does not change anything in the engine. It only changes the rate at which the turbo spools. Is this a change in VE if T7 is constantly varying boost regardless of turbo effort?
07-22-2004 03:01 PM
mike saunders Hah!...

So, Adrian, should I have anything to worry about if I'm bypassing the MAF sensor and using the T5 intake and throttle body in putting a B205R into a 97 SET?

I'm still planning to the use the T5 ECU, but with an eventual Stage 4 SQR upgrade...
07-22-2004 02:54 PM
BurnsSide42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaque_Out
You didn't miss much. There was just some discussion how highly technical some of these discussions are. Some people felt that it would be better if things were explained in a way that everyone can understand. That includes myself, and I'm actually in Engineering.

Others felt it was no big deal and they welcome the technicality.
:Big Pitcher of Kool Aid burst through wall: "Ohhhh Yeeaah!" "Ohhh Noooo!"
07-22-2004 02:48 PM
SaabTuner Sorry *hangs head in shame*
07-22-2004 02:37 PM
Tweek's Turbos Cmon guys.
07-22-2004 02:35 PM
rcmdesign Ok. WE GET IT

You cannot gain any hp with a T7 without modifying the ecu

Phew...Finally got that settled...
07-22-2004 02:30 PM
SaabTuner
Quote:
Originally Posted by xaamottomaax
Yeah I know what you mean about the language barrier. It seemed to take a while just to differentiate boost adaptation and long term fuel adaptation.

Quote:
It still does not make sense to me that the MAF sensor could read incorrectly without a modified intake. (Which is another reason NOT to add a modified intake.)
It makes sense to me that things could get thrown off slightly when increasing the volume of the intake system after the MAF sensor via a larger intercooler or intake piping where the MAP sensor would expect a certain pressure based on the amount of air passing the MAF sensor when in fact the pressure at the MAP sensor would be lower than expected due to the increased amount of air needed to charge the larger volume. Opening the intake by removing the air box or inserting a better flowing filter should not cause this problem since the amount of air mass needed to pressurize the intercooler and post MAF piping would not change. This type of modification should not change the VE correct?

Firstly boost CONSTANTLY changes on T7 depending on everything from altitude, to temperature, to humidity. You must understand that T7 will boost to a certain air-mass/combust ... this is just determined by what the MAF sensor reads vs. RPM.

However, there is potential for things to get screwy once modified because during spool up the MAP sensor is used to "correct" the air-mass/combustion value. This is due to the large inertia of the air in the induction system. (The MAF sensor is so far from the throttle and intake ports that it takes a while for its readings to "catch up".) So during spool up, the change in VE could cause a bad reading, and I don't know exactly what effect that would have.

The airmass calculation in a MAF sensor car goes something like this:

-MAF sensor reads grams/second.

-Engine RPM sensor reads Revolutions/Second.

So ...

[grams/second] divided by [revolutions/second] = grams/revolution (this part tells the ECU how much to boost)

[grams/revolution] divided by [desired air/fuel ratio] = fuel required per revolution

In a MAP sensor'd car it goes like this:

-MAP sensor reads pressure in KPa, which is converted to grams/cubic centimeter using temperature and a conversion factor.

-VE tells computer what volume of air the engine will take in each time it opens the intake valves. It varies through the RPM band, and everything from Exhaust to Intake changes it.

-ECU reads RPM.

So ...

[MAP in KPa] times[conversion factor to convert MAP and temp to grams/cubic centimeter] times [ VE in liters] divided by [RPM] divided by [desired air/fuel ratio] = Required fuel per revolution



As you can see the changes in VE caused by an exhaust should not affect anything in a T7 car if it were that simple. Unfortunately T7 uses the MAP system AND the air-mass system, so things get a little complicated. It only uses the MAP for correction. (Of course "Tionic" would disagree with much of this, so believe what you like.)

Opening the intake could throw off the readings even worse by altering the shape of the airflow over the hot wire. It usually isn't a problem, but be careul.

Intakes and intercoolers slightly reduce how hard the turbo has to pump to generate x boost pressure, this means the turbo runs less duty cycle and thus reduces backpressure on the engine, and changes the VE.

Nearly any conventional method for making horsepower causes a change in VE. That's usually how you MAKE hp.

Intake and intercooler just shouldn't cause a very BIG change, so they shouldn't disturb the system much. Theoretically ...


Adrian~
07-22-2004 01:34 PM
xaamottomaax Yeah I know what you mean about the language barrier. It seemed to take a while just to differentiate boost adaptation and long term fuel adaptation.

Quote:
It still does not make sense to me that the MAF sensor could read incorrectly without a modified intake. (Which is another reason NOT to add a modified intake.)
It makes sense to me that things could get thrown off slightly when increasing the volume of the intake system after the MAF sensor via a larger intercooler or intake piping where the MAP sensor would expect a certain pressure based on the amount of air passing the MAF sensor when in fact the pressure at the MAP sensor would be lower than expected due to the increased amount of air needed to charge the larger volume. Opening the intake by removing the air box or inserting a better flowing filter should not cause this problem since the amount of air mass needed to pressurize the intercooler and post MAF piping would not change. This type of modification should not change the VE correct?
07-22-2004 12:45 PM
SaabTuner I felt the same way about Trionic. He is from Switzerland, which is where Hirsch tuning is located. And he had previously made some statements in a topic a while back about Phillip HS's dyno run after Phillip had just come back from Hirsch.

Some of the members likely put 2+2 together ... but he never actually identified himself.

I find that frequently anything I say, regardless of how well informed or poorly informed, is disregarded as soon as the "established wisdom" is expressed.

I also think it just tends to be a European attitide towards many things. They respect the authority more than we Americans do. So if the authority says something, even without evidence, many individuals would jump to follow.

It happens here too a lot. I think it's just a cultural thing.

Also Trionic said a lot of stuff I agreed with, I just didn't believe it was the cause of the "learning down" ... and there was a distict language barrier between us. He and I constantly misunderstood eachother. Which was a shame. He obviously knows a great deal even if I don't agree with him.

I also wish he had posted evidence, any evidence, to support his claims. Had I seen evidence to prove my theory wrong, I wouldn't have hesitated to agree. But thus far, I haven't seen any.

Nick T and I are kind of working on it. (Though I have to admit he'll be doing most of the "work" since I don't have access to any datalogging software as of yet.) Maybe we'll figure something out.

We may find out that Trionic was right, at which point we'll have to try to figure out why. It still does not make sense to me that the MAF sensor could read incorrectly without a modified intake. (Which is another reason NOT to add a modified intake.)

Adrian~
07-22-2004 10:13 AM
Boxerchip
07-22-2004 09:46 AM
Blaque You didn't miss much. There was just some discussion how highly technical some of these discussions are. Some people felt that it would be better if things were explained in a way that everyone can understand. That includes myself, and I'm actually in Engineering.

Others felt it was no big deal and they welcome the technicality.
07-22-2004 09:44 AM
xaamottomaax There was some interesting commentary...you didnt miss anything. As far as your other "trouble", the whole topic was ditched long before the issue was resolved. If someone is going to say flat out, you're wrong, they need to have some evidence to back it up. The guy also has a practical cult following over there. This about summed it up...

Quote:
If you take trionic's word for it, and ignore WIS you'll have a far better (correct) understanding of how the system works
Sounds like a leap of faith to me....I really think there is a bit of anti-yank attitude over there.
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