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Old 10-12-2008, 06:28 PM   #41
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yea, the ignition trigger was hooked into the main relay which turns off when the car is cranking,, but is on when the car is in run,,, the ECU triggers are now hooked into the former coil + wire,, this works great

im going to start drafting the complete wright up on how to do it,,, (now that i can trim out all the mistakes) hopefully i have that done within the week


also, i still have your 2.1 mani and 9k fuel rail, you best get me some SPG springs!!!
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Old 10-13-2008, 06:25 PM   #42
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Some more beauty shots,, now the dizzy is all the way out, all the sensors are mounted, the car is ready for T5 suite...

also, fuel milage has gone WAY up with T5 in the car,, i figure im getting somewhere between 30-34,, il post the final after calculations.


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Old 10-14-2008, 04:53 AM   #43
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i must say that this car drives soo nice mike came down to my house to get my springs and i took it out for a drive it doesnt drive like a saab anymore its like a new car!
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:47 AM   #44
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Here is an updated model for how to T5 a c900
this conversion was done on a 1993 turbo vert 5spd, using the wiring harness from a 95 9000 LPT, i chose this harness primarily because most LPTs did not have TCS. this saves work in wiring. and because 1995 is obd1,, which mates nicer to the car. you do not want TCS or obd2

CPS
this is buy far the most challenging part of the project. its also the most important, the CPS is the soul of T5,, so take your time be precise, and do it right.

On a c900 the AC pulley is an add-on to the harmonic balancer. The AC pully is held to the harmonic balencer buy 3, 10mm bolts these bolts are pains to get too, but its just one of those things you need to work out.

Once the AC pully is out, some machine work will need to be done. Your best bet is to contact somebody with a mettle lathe and have them remove the outer 1-2 inchs of pulley, then make a ridge on the pulley for the CPS wheel to sit on. This way the wheel is centered. Then simply weld the CPS wheel on taking into account the alignment of the wheel vs the CPS sensor.

post lathing heres what we took off the pulley


My bracket is made from a saab motor hook, (one that bolts onto head, bolt holes are the exact same length apart as two bolts on oil pump cover) and some scraps of mettle i had sitting around the house.

Mounting the CPS sensor onto the motor entails fabricating a mount to hold it. The bolts on the oil pump cover that are easiest to access are directly under the alternator. These two bolts are the exact same distance apart as the Fuel pressure reg bracket/ motor hoist hooks on the head, either of these works well as a starting point for the mount, and is well worth the time to track down to use.
This is not the end of the fabrication, you’ll still need to make a spot for the CPS and weld the bracket together.

here's what they look like



the CPS wheel line up specs can be seen in adshafts T5 conversion page, After much debate I found these to be dead accurate. here is a terrific illustration of how the CPS sensor and wheel need to be fitted, the drawing below is courtesy of Adshaft.



a quick wheel line up can be seen here. below is a pic of the CPS wheel, the red is where the missing teeth are, the black is the area the CPS sees when the wheel is at TDC. i dont know what saab engineers were thinking making the wheel work like this,, but that's just how it is



and lastly, this if the finished product mounted on my car



Wiring overview
Start here


when you redo the harness note that the IAT and DI plug will need to be separated, there’s plenty of wire to spread over the harness, but there very tightly bound on the 9k harness. This is because on a 9k the DI and IAT are in the same region, this is not going to be the case on a c900.
There is also no NEED to cut any wires on the T5 harness, all the wires that need to be spliced come off the grey plug,, also by using the grey plug you give the entire system a perfect "quick disconnect" incase you ever need to pull the motor out,, now i just need to remove 2 plugs, and the entire harness is disconnect from the car, this will make trans swaps easier. ( which may become a frequent occurrence after T5. )

the wires in the grey plug that will need to be tapped into are

-Map sensor, 3 wires = grey, blue. black
- + hot leads (permanent), RED
- + leads, (switched), Green/white
- Fuel injector + switch ( this wire is spliced internally in the 9k harness, it also leads to the AIC valve), blue/red
- DI + switch, red/grey
- Fuel pump (optional, run wire from other switched power wires to coil, override ECU), purple
- speed sensor (used for boost control, i organlly ran an MBC)
- brake light switch (optional, cuts boost when braking/prevent brake boosting)
- shift up light (optional)
- 02 sensor preheater wire, blue/red
- BPC wires, i havent done this yet, but they go though the grey plug



this is why its important to get that grey plug, this confines all the wiring work to one easily removable and alterable section. This reduced the possibility for you to make a terminal/ difficult wiring mess. basically this keeps the process SIMPLE

Lh 2.4 has this to offer
-speed sensor, this can be found in the 2.4 ecu connector, this is the easiest spot to get to it
-brake switch, no need to tap into this. T5 doesn't need to know your on the brake
- fuel pump trigger, found in 2.4 plug, make sure that you power the relay properly, going straight from ECU to to fuel pump will overload the circuit on the computer and shorten the ECUs life. this relay is located above the old Jetronic ECU inside the car on the passengers footwell. OR simply run the fuel pump from the Coil trigger wire.

-Tach wire, Pin 7 on ignition amp, right next to APC box. both pin 7 and pin 1 are blue wires,, pins are listed on ignition amp itself not harness. pin 7 is the one above my finger

- upshift shift light Why would i ever want this???? leave it out. (if you want this, look to jetronic ECU plug)
-main relay , don’t touch this, the main relay although on in the Run position is OFF while cranking, so if vitals are hooked up to this the car will not start.
-always hot(+12) power
getting power to the ECU is a one of the more difficult pieces. the T5 ECU needs 2 always HOT (+12) leads, this is Pin 1 & Pin 48 (both red), tap into the battery or distribution block. These wires both run though the grey external plug

Trigger wires
T5 also has 2 trigger leads, these are pin 59 & 60 both are green/white wires. (leads found in grey plug) These wires see power when the car is in crank/run position, and tell the computer to turn on and to be ready to receive a CPS signal. for these trigger leads i tapped into the former Coil positive (+) trigger wire, this factory circuit does the job perfectly. i also use this trigger for the DI, fuel injector, and fuel pump trigger. (((((( note,, all of the mentioned wires in the last paragraph are found in grey plug))))))


-Grounds
all the needed grounds for a 9000 bolt to the intake manifold, these grounds power the ECU. the holes in the 9000 harness are to small to be put anywhere on a 900 intake manifold. you have 3 options.
1, drill out ground lugs
2 cut/crimp new ground lugs on
3 screw to throttle body, my TB has a blockoff plate on the top of it, this Allen screw is the right size, and shows 0 voltage drop. TB= WIN (at least for me)



For more pin out detail on T5 ecus see page 106 of "T5suite documentation".

Automatic Idle Control Valve
later series saab 900 turbos (like my 1993) use 2 wire AIC valves, this is 100% compatible with T5. just plug them in.

Throttle body/ Throttle position sensor

2.1 throttle bodies have the proper TPS sensor simply swap the TB out. (((((its also a good idea to clean the TB prior to installing))))

finish up buy placing in the proper

- fuel injectors. and fuel rail/ FPR. 9000 turbos all have 3.0 bar FPRs, this can be achieved buy either using an NA FPR, or swapping out to a full 9000 fuel rail. (some fabrication required for 9k rail, but soo worth it, 9k rails look SWEET)

-coolant temp sensor. (located on intake manifold, T5 uses a different one than jetronic)
- O2 sensor.
-Di casset
-removing dizzy, coil, and plug wires. replace dizzy hole in head with plug (found on all 9000s with DI)
-remove ignition PCM (remember pin 7 on ign PCM leads to tach, this crosses to pin 59 on T5 ecu)
-plug in fuel injectors, and other sensors..

Map Sensor
The Map sensor is the easiest one to mount, the clip that mounts this to the false bulkhead on a 9000 clips onto the side of the inner fender,, below is an illustration.
also note that i needed to make longer wires than what existed on the harness, i needed an extra 3 feet of wire to mount the map where i did. mounting the Map close to the manifold is very important, long vac lines will cause a delayed or improper reading from the MAP, so keep it close, and keep the map on its own designated vac line.


Intake Air Temp sensors (IAT)

T5 uses 1 IAT sensor this sensor goes on the delivery pipe (intercooler to TB).

Earlyer i thought T5 has 2 IAT, i was wrong, it only has one, The one currently on my intake manifold is actually a coolant temp sensor. ill have it remounted in good time.
Do not do what is done in the picture below,, it is not correct

the delivery pipe IAT i drilled into the O on an old style turbo pipe.. this is a bad idea,, the O may seam temping because the IAT fits perfectly, however once the plug is placed on it, the hood no longer clears, and the plug will break,,

below is a picture of what NOT to do


i should have mounted the IAT on the side more out of the way.... learn from my mistakes.

.
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Old 10-14-2008, 12:42 PM   #45
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the funny thing about this is when you were putting the 9K flywheel on you were worried about the timing marks.... now you dont need them
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:03 PM   #46
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((((EDIT))) do you lots of wireiing question, here is a T5 ECU pinout taken from T5 documentation

Appendix II : Trionic 5 pinout
70 pin connector
Pinnumber Color Description Range In/out
1 Red +30 (power supply) +12 Volt In
2 Blue Boost pressure control valve Out
3 Grey Injector 1 Out
4 Blue Injector 2 Out
5 Yellow Injector 3 Out
6 White Injector 4 Out
8 --- Knock detect (knock indicator) Switches to GND Out
9 Brown/white Trigger 1 Out
10 Green Trigger 2 Out
11 Blue Trigger 3 Out
12 Grey Trigger 4 Out
13 White Engine torque limitation In
14 Orange Drive In
15 White Brake light switch In
17 Yellow Combustion cylinder 1+2 In
18 Brown Combustion cylinder 3+4 In
20 PK MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) signal +5 Volt Out
22 Grey MAP sensor input signal 0 – 5 Volt In
23 Green Oxygen sensor 1 (front lambda sonde) In
24 Black/white Main ground In
25 Black/white Main ground In
26 Green Boost pressure control valve Out
27 Yellow/red EVAP canister purge valve Out
28 GN EVAP canister close valve Out
29 --- Heat plate activation relay Out
31 Yellow/white Main relay Out
32 White Check engine Out
33 Blue/white Diagnosis In/Out
36 BU/WH Cruise control In
39 Green Speed signal In
41 Yellow Crankshaft position sensor In
42 WH/BK Throttle position sensor Out
43 Blue/white Pressure sensor Out
44 Orange Knock signal In
45 GN/BN Throttle position sensor In
46 Black Intake air temperature sensor In
47 Black Oxygen sensor, reference ground In
48 Red +30 (power supply) +12 Volt In
49 BU/VT Idle air control valve (IAC) Out
50 Black Oxygen sensor 1, preheating Out
52 YE/WH Vacuum pump, brake system Out
54 RD/WH A/C out Out
55 --- Shift up light Switches to GND Out
56 Violet Fuel pump relay Out
57 Yellow Throttle position signal Out
58 Blue Engine speed signal (RPM) Out
59 Green/white A/C in In
60 Green/white +15 (switched power supply, ignition contact) In
62 Grey CANH (CAN bus high signal) In/Out
63 Red CANL (CAN bus low signal) In/Out
65 Red/white Programming voltage +16 Volt In
66 Black Reference ground for engine coolant temp. sensor 0 Volt In
67 Black/white Sensor ground 0 Volt Out
68 Yellow Engine coolant temperature sensor In








Quote:
Originally Posted by spgeebee88 View Post
the funny thing about this is when you were putting the 9K flywheel on you were worried about the timing marks.... now you dont need them
yea,, i knew T5 was in the future for this car,, but i didnt think it would be this soon.

on a different note i blew a rad hose today,, im pretty sure there the original hoses at 266k miles,, so i'm replacing them all,, and the belts,, i hate stupid probs like that
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:23 PM   #47
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No need to use a 9k speedo then?
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:42 PM   #48
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none at all, T5 has no need for a speed sensor,, and if you realllllllllly want it, you can use the one thats already in the back of the speedo, this is used buy the the cruise control, which sees the exact same output that T5 functions off of.
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Old 10-14-2008, 04:24 PM   #49
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Jesus Mike!!!! Good Job!!!!! Someone should sticky this...
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Old 10-14-2008, 05:05 PM   #50
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Fantastic.

Tonight when I have time I will go through and clean this up, then make a sticky.

Looks like I need to start hoarding parts...
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Old 10-14-2008, 05:41 PM   #51
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mike d like raul only less red and more fun to hang out with
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Old 10-14-2008, 06:31 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike d View Post
none at all, T5 has no need for a speed sensor,, and if you realllllllllly want it, you can use the one thats already in the back of the speedo, that the cruise control uses there output signals are the same.....
Why did jjorgensen52 go through all the trouble of adapting a 9k speedo then? Did he do that just to have a different cluster?

What does the speed sensor even do? T5 controls boost then too right? Sorry I only deal with old school Saabs.

Quote:
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Looks like I need to start hoarding parts...
x2
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Old 10-14-2008, 06:56 PM   #53
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Quote:
"What does the speed sensor even do? T5 controls boost then too right? Sorry I only deal with old school Saabs.
T5 does controll boost, although im still running an MBC (no haters)

T5 uses the speed sensor for 3 purposes,, one is to determine power in gear, and limit it to avoid wheel spin. the second is a deceleration function, this leans out the car when decelerating in gear to achieve better fuel economy,, however T5 places the least wright on the speed sencer, and more uses the TPS, and CPS to deter man when off throttle decelerating. I can see this very drastic change to lean, (which is what you want) on my AFR gunge. lastly T5 also has a function built in to limit top speed, if you want to limit your speed, odds are your not one of the people reading this post

9k speedos are also back lit and got 10mph higher...

My install of T5 was a barebones " what will it take to make this run" install. JJorgonsen is doing alot more than just a T5 install. his car is looking very very very cool, the oilpresure gauge is AWSOME on his car, but not required to make T5 work and function properly

ironicly a c900 is my first trionic car,

also, if i was to put together a CPS wheel and CPS bracket specifically made for this application and ready to go as a "bolt on" how much would people be willing to pay for the set?
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Old 10-20-2008, 06:22 PM   #54
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well mike,

i just found this thread this morning while i was in robotics class....
i was very impressed so i started aquiring some parts. ill definatly be harrassing you for intel soon on this subject.

and im very sad to come back and find your 9k is no longer around
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:36 PM   #55
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RIP betty,, but the vert is pretty awsome too,, not as fast (yet) but im working on it,, so far the list of upgrades is
9k clutch
2.3head, 2.1 intake mani
T5
rebuilt trans..
aero seat/wheels
SPG springs

more big upgrades to come,,, but the next order of business needs to be the roof
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:03 PM   #56
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ohh yea, BTW Eucaliptus green KICKS ASS!!!!!
i really feel bad for selling my aero, it needed 2 fenders and a hatch,but other then that was totally solid (328000) it was actually much more solid then many cars i have seen with half the mileage, if you dont count the fenders and hatch.
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:10 PM   #57
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Euc green has kinda grown on me,, it looks nice on a c900
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:24 AM   #58
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Last night i got my car tuned, and what a difference!! it runs soo much smoother, faster, and better driving. its getting time for more hardware to go with the software!

also last night i cleaned up all the wireing under the hood, i moved the T5 ecu to where the APC box was formerly located,, and made a special bracket so it slides in and out easy. pics to come later today

also on the cars build list has been a new roof.. i found a great deal on a barely used top/frame and mounted them up. vert roofs are a pretty straight forward job if there already on the frame
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:34 AM   #59
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Any speeding tickets on the way back
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:04 AM   #60
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Nice! Was the software upgrade pretty straightforward or were there any special considerations for C900s?

Is it running the boost control now?
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