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Old 11-16-2007, 06:07 PM   #1
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B-Motor TURBO build?

so ive been kicking around ideas for my 73 EMS, and lately ive decided on using a 78 turbo engine that i have from a parts car, supposedly rebuilt, but who really knows. thinking of putting my d-jet intake on the thing and running megasquirt along with a newer 8v exhaust manifold and most likely a TD04-16t that i have laying around. anything i should be particularly concerned about with the b-motor? im planning to give it a fresh head gasket at the least and was thinking about swapping in some later 9.0:1 turbo pistons to make it a bit peppier on the low end, perhaps along with my 73's original pre-smog cam. how high can i rev the thing without stuff breaking? Any ideas are welcome, and feel free to call me a fool and tell me to just put a 16v h motor in the thing

terrifyingly, i might be the most knowledgeable person on here when it comes to b-motors, but i figured it'd be worth a shot

Paul
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:17 PM   #2
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Whoa. A td04?


Nice.

A T3 did great things to my 83. I can only imagine what it would be like with a TD04 and MS.

While you have the head off, how about you take .04" off the top?

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Old 11-16-2007, 06:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmer View Post
Whoa. A td04?


Nice.

A T3 did great things to my 83. I can only imagine what it would be like with a TD04 and MS.

While you have the head off, how about you take .04" off the top?

at the least a 16t, ive been looking at HX30's though...they look nice...

i mean hell i have the LSD, i need to make enough power to make use of it!

oh and yeah, the car weighs 2400lbs fully loaded...

Paul
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:34 PM   #4
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Boy, I'd just skip all the way to a 16-valve turbo.

I almost did that with my 99 Turbo, except that I made the decision to keep the B motor because the 99 T's are so rare. There was value in keeping the stock motor (which still needs/needed a full rebuild).

The B turbo has no knock sensor, intercooler, an asbolutely terrible water pump which is getting nearly impossible to fix, they're prone to overheating and blowing head gaskets, etc.

And you want to put a TD-04 on top of that?

Plus, I'll bet it's the same amount of work to fit it in as a 16-valve would be. I forget the list, but there are a fair amount of differences between a '73 and a '78 99.

(Oh, and BTW, can I buy your extra 99 T motor in case the guy who is rebuilding mine screws it up? I'm deeply afraid that might happen.

Notwithstanding my interests here, my advice still stands.)
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:44 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregabbott View Post
Boy, I'd just skip all the way to a 16-valve turbo.

I almost did that with my 99 Turbo, except that I made the decision to keep the B motor because the 99 T's are so rare. There was value in keeping the stock motor (which still needs/needed a full rebuild).

The B turbo has no knock sensor, intercooler, an asbolutely terrible water pump which is getting nearly impossible to fix, they're prone to overheating and blowing head gaskets, etc.

And you want to put a TD-04 on top of that?

Plus, I'll bet it's the same amount of work to fit it in as a 16-valve would be. I forget the list, but there are a fair amount of differences between a '73 and a '78 99.

(Oh, and BTW, can I buy your extra 99 T motor in case the guy who is rebuilding mine screws it up? I'm deeply afraid that might happen.

Notwithstanding my interests here, my advice still stands.)
yeah, these are all things i know, and that im concerned about, some more than others though, im gonna get a good head gasket, and ive got ARP head studs that should help matters. it should be a direct drop in in my car, whereas the 16v will be a bitch and a half because my car has the early style master cyl, and you basically cant retrofit the later one into the car, and from the looks of it a 16v wont clear the master cyl my car has. the intercooler i think i have a plan for, i figure if i ditch the inner headlights, and cut the crap out of the rad support, i should be able to fit a decent sized intercooler up in front of the rad since mine doesnt have fans up there. the knock sensor is a slight issue, though nutcase on SC has retrofitted one, and it doesnt look like its terribly hard to do. the water pump scares me a lot, but ive got one of the tools, and if all else fails theres the electric water pump route. the overheating thing isnt even an issue, ive seen 99ts that run hot, and its usually due to a shot radiator, do yourself a favor and buy a new one, theres a guy on ebay selling em, they work awesome. i hear they crack heads too, thats a large concern to me, but i figure if i can keep knocking at bay, and coolant temps down, that really shouldnt happen.

Paul
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregabbott View Post
...

And you want to put a TD-04 on top of that?

...

(Oh, and BTW, can I buy your extra 99 T motor in case the guy who is rebuilding mine screws it up? I'm deeply afraid that might happen...)
TD04 16t really is not that big. The motor will handle it so long as Paul takes the precautions that he outlined.

And as far as Greg's '79 99...you're getting totally hosed over on that car Greg. Chris should have had that done a really, really long time ago. He's taking you on a very long painful ride.

if he hasn't taken the block and head to the machine shops yet then he probably is screwing you over. If he has taken it to the machinists, then he's being an asshole and not puting it back together.

If that motor is not all cleaned and totally painted and polished I would say you are getting super-duper-screwed.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK View Post

if he hasn't taken the block and head to the machine shops yet then he probably is screwing you over. If he has taken it to the machinists, then he's being an asshole and not puting it back together.
It's been at least three months since the block and the head came back from the machine shop. I have in fact seen them.

And guessing who has not been answering my calls lately? Supposedly "the first week of November" was the latest estimated date of completion.

Sorry for the thread jack.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK View Post
TD04 16t really is not that big. The motor will handle it so long as Paul takes the precautions that he outlined.
thats kinda what i'm thinking, pretty sure im headed into uncharted territory here, considering i'll actually be using the b-motor with a proper engine management system, think itll be more interesting than the boring old 16v swap thats been done before again and again. plus it keeps a shred of the originality of the car in tact.

and yeah the 16t really isnt that big, like i said im considering larger, from what ive read about the holset hx30 it supposedly is very similar to a t3/t4 below 10psi or so, but with much much more effieciency at higher boost levels, should be good for at least 350whp . but thats probably getting way ahead of myself

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregabbott View Post
It's been at least three months since the block and the head came back from the machine shop. I have in fact seen them.

And guessing who has not been answering my calls lately? Supposedly "the first week of November" was the latest estimated date of completion.

Sorry for the thread jack.

you should go punch him in the face. hope all goes well for ya, and if i decide not to use the motor i'll let you know, i'm probably going to pull it out of the car sometime next week, so hopefully i can take a better look at the condition of the thing before i go making big plans for it.

Paul
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:07 AM   #9
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One problem you may have a problem with is a design flaw with the b-motor turbo. The all the stock 78-80's had a problem stock where they get the exhaust valves really really hot and at high RPM the valves will stretch or the head will crack. Also they had a big problem with detination and eating pistons at even 7.8:1 (i think thats it) and like 8psi of boost. But then again if you have that knock sensor you could use that to control ignition timing, are you going to run EZK? Marty will know more than I do since he worked on them when they were new hopefully he'll chime in.

And by the way get out of my head. We just got a 77' Pre-production Turbo thats hashed and we thinking of doing this to a 76 99.
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1979 99 GL "99 Super"
1999 S10 ZR2
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:44 AM   #10
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yeah the head cracking kinda sounds like its a no intercooler issue, probably combined with the overheating problems, i'm thinking that with proper intercooling, proper fueling and timing control, plus the knock sensor, it should be fairly reliable. i'm probably going to just run some coil packs from a GM car or something, controlled by megasquirt.

Paul
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:44 AM   #11
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hell if you can do that then it will just be keeping the cylinder temps. down.

you said for intercooling you were gonna do a FMIC?

the cars had their problems cooling wise mainly due to limited space between the the turbo/pipes and the radiator. you'll probably want to use your early style radiatior because they were thicker and put 2 spal fans in front of the radiator like a the real ones were.

then shove the intercooler behind the air dam and use the duct for the battery cooler for the intercooler and put the battery in the trunk. thats the easiest and coolest way that i can think of.
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1979 99 GL "99 Super"
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Old 11-19-2007, 07:25 AM   #12
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i cant wait to see this...
im seriously interested in this project. love the idea... 16vt is done way to much, i really want a clean 84 8vt, or 78 99t... there just so cool..
JP
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I heard Tom Had a 2 pump dump on his injector duty cycle....

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Old 11-19-2007, 04:02 PM   #13
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I dont have any advice apart from others have said, but Im very interested also. I plan to turbo my 99 a few years down the track, so I can learn a lot from this build.

And its always good to see someone try something different
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:36 PM   #14
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paul, when I get my n/a b-motor built we can race.
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:04 PM   #15
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paul, when I get my n/a b-motor built we can race.
sure, for pinks?

Paul
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:09 PM   #16
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Haha.

Sure you want that thing?

I know I don't want yours, might infect my whole crop with rust

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Old 11-21-2007, 07:39 PM   #17
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true enough, also, you would have to come out this way, no chance i could make it all the way out there and back on one trans

Paul
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:17 PM   #18
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umm i might have a lead on a 78 99 T engine... not sure as of yet... but ill see in a couple weeks.
JP
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Old 11-27-2007, 01:04 PM   #19
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8v bliss

o.k long story short....I think your project sounds cool....I've got an H motor 8v with a t3 turbo..hugh fmic & would love to ditch the Cis for a mega-squirt. The problem is I've never wanted to go it alone. I think you guys could be of some help along the way with your project going as well. I would very much like some encouragement on going forward with the fuel system swap. Thanks. By the way Saabsbreakdown....I mange to adjust my fuel distributor to run 8psi thanks to your tips..but it's still just not enough for me...I want more.
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Old 12-10-2007, 10:48 PM   #20
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still ready to loose?

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