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-   -   Starting problem from hell (https://www.saablink.net/forum/showthread.php?t=97417)

Maria's Dad 11-08-2014 05:18 AM

Starting problem from hell
 
2001 saab won't start. Here is what I have done. I can get it to run if I spray starting fluid into the intake and it will run smooth if spray well. I figure the electrical system is good. Fuel system is the problem. I put new plugs in. No change. Put in new fuel pump. No change. Replaced the CPS. No change. Hired a guy to check the computer, etc. He determined is was the drivers in the computer. I sent the computer to a company that rebuilds it with lifetime guarantee, and they said they replaced bad resisters in computer. Reinstalled the computer. No change. Now I can't get the computer guy to come back. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

Drew in Houston 11-08-2014 06:13 AM

I'd check the actual fuel rail pressure at the injectors. There's a port on the fuel rail that's compatible with generic fuel pressure meters. I have a car that's had some pretty poor past maintenance performed on it and it just had a fuel line slip off a brand new fuel pump assembly inside the tank that didn't have a clamp installed on it. So you could hear the pump running, except no fuel was being delivered, was just pumping it around inside the tank.. So that's a possibility you could check.

I'm skeptical that anyone "replaced bad resistors" on your engine control unit. That sounds like possible fraud to me, these are surface mount boards. Fuel injector drivers could maybe be replaced, either way replacing components on the actual board means they've broken the conformal coating which is never a good thing. If you think it's the ECU, you have Trionic 7 car; I'd just buy a new controller off of eBay or hit the junkyards or put a Wanted post here, you should be able to get a good used one for $75 or so, then find someone with a Tech II to marry the new ECU and put the proper code on it for your car.

Where are you located? There's all kinds of people tuning these cars these days and they have the tools to do engine controller swaps.

Maria's Dad 11-08-2014 06:31 AM

I live in Paoli,Indiana. Very small town about one hour from Louisville Ky. that is the problem, can't find anyone local to help me.
I don't have a fuel pressure gauge but the pressure at the start of the rail is very good, sprays out fine. I guess the computer repair guys said that there was a problem with the resisters and they fixed them not necessarily replaced. I really don't know squat about that stuff. Just trying to get my girls car back on the road.

Drew in Houston 11-08-2014 08:17 PM

Okay, well it sounds like maybe your ECU or maybe not, who knows. You can't really "fix" a resistor so you're wasting time posting on here. Tell Maria that you need to sell it for $300 for scrap or educate yourself and get smarter with your questions.

g96nt 11-10-2014 08:01 AM

There's the welcome wagon for ya.

Bottom-line is that you have to trace the problem back to it's start.
There are advanced ways that a mechanic with all the right tools do it, and the ways a backyard guy can do it.

You need to be sure the car has spark. flip the ignition cassette over, stick plugs in, and crank it over. you should see sparks jumping across the plugs.

You need to make sure there's fuel at the rail. head to Autozone and pick up a fuel pressure tester. Should be cheap, and screws right onto the schraeder valve at the fuel-rail. you'll know right away if there's fuel-pressure, as turning the key primes the pump/builds pressure.

To see if the injectors are firing... you can crank for a longer-than usual time, and smell the tailpipe. you'll smell the raw gas.... Or remove the ignition cassette/plugs and crank, and check for gas in the cylinder. (easy-enough with a flashlight.)

Once you know which part of this (very simple) cycle is broken, you can work down that road.

As Drew so eloquently stated, It's not a common thing for ECU's to fail in a way that burns resistors, and beyond that, with the amount of people able to re-flash an ECU with the correct codes, trying to repair one is not usually done. I'd contact one of the many guys on here that are offering tuning on the side, and see if they'll sell one of their known-good cores, married to your car.

oliversexpedition 11-10-2014 08:09 AM

Welcome! The fuel rail takes a standard fuel pressure tester, maybe able to borrow one or they are cheap at Advanced or Autozone. Look up the diagnostics for fuel pump, its under the back seat and fairly accessible.

Maria's Dad 11-20-2014 04:23 AM

Thanks, 96nt, That is the second guy who has advised me to sell a car when it has problems. The first one was years ago when I took it to him for a tune up and he couldn't get it to run smooth. At this point, I know I have fuel at the injectors and the plugs are getting fire. It will run sporadically, but not longest than a few seconds. It's flooding now. I realize that this is beyond my limited skills, I just can't find anybody to work on it. The guy that was diagnosing it won't come back says his brother is dying.

g96nt 11-20-2014 07:02 AM

If it is flooding, it is likely an ECU issue.
The Injectors are likely sticking open and spraying.
It's most-likely a short on the board that's grounding the injectors.

Where are you? I'm sure we can find someone relatively close to help you out.

nowhereman 11-20-2014 12:30 PM

he is in Paoli, Indiana

anyone have any advice or know someone in that area?

like g96nt said it sounds like something in depth electronically

seriks1 11-20-2014 03:58 PM

bad gas? pretty easy to pop off a line and take a sample

Drew in Houston 11-20-2014 04:30 PM

You guys are funny. Without the OP performing some actual tests/checks y'all are just guessing.

Craig for one has no idea what he's talking about, like normal. I didn't say that it's "uncommon for resistors to fail", what I was actually communicating is that size and the way these circuit boards are built make it impractical to solder new resistors in place. I'm super curious in what exact "advanced ways" he thinks the car should be checked lol. I know that I've successfully soldered on these boards, it's not worth it.

I made a suggestion about checking fuel pressure with a generic gauge that anyone can borrow for free from just about any parts store, but that was too much troubleshooting for the OP.

If you really want to try a new engine controller, like I wrote in the first post, find someone to program one. MikeD on here comes to mind as being capable. The guy's managing to post on the interwebs all the way from Paoli, indicating they have the electricty there so I assume they have mail service there to. There's one screw holding the engine controller in place.

g96nt 11-20-2014 04:42 PM

Advanced like with a tech 2, obd2 logger or even a node light.

You know.. the kind of stuff that not every person has at their disposal

You can't possibly be that out of touch that you think every person has these things

Drew in Houston 11-20-2014 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g96nt (Post 2061297)
Advanced like with a tech 2, obd2 logger or even a node light.

You know.. the kind of stuff that not every person has at their disposal

You can't possibly be that out of touch that you think every person has these things

Those are tools craig, not advanced ways to trace a problem.

nowhereman 11-21-2014 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew in Houston (Post 2061305)
Quote:

Originally Posted by g96nt (Post 2061297)
Advanced like with a tech 2, obd2 logger or even a node light.

You know.. the kind of stuff that not every person has at their disposal

You can't possibly be that out of touch that you think every person has these things

Those are tools craig, not advanced ways to trace a problem.

you may classify them as tools (most of us do) however to someone that doesnt have them and isnt in to cars like most of us would consider them advanced ways of troubleshooting. calm down.

something beyond the scope of the OPs current knowledge abilities is wrong, they need to either bring it to a reputable saab mechanic or get on the phone with someone that can walk them through some steps to get a better idea what is going on.

Drew in Houston 11-21-2014 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman (Post 2061321)
you may classify them as tools (most of us do) however to someone that doesnt have them and isnt in to cars like most of us would consider them advanced ways of troubleshooting. calm down.

something beyond the scope of the OPs current knowledge abilities is wrong, they need to either bring it to a reputable saab mechanic or get on the phone with someone that can walk them through some steps to get a better idea what is going on.

My point exactly, thank you.

Craig is a member of that group and has no idea what kind of "advanced troubleshooting" he's actually recommending. There's no Easy Button on a Tech 2, or a multimeter, or an insulation tester, or on a socket set.

If the OP would show a little willingness to make some kind of committed investment, learn and get his hands a little dirty to gather necessary information/check some things, there's no doubt he could figure out what's wrong, and with near real time help from this forum (me included). For example, I covered exactly what you two repeated, I just didn't wear my kid gloves after he acted all helpless; and meanwhile the people who are standing by, that actually could help, still have no additional information from the OP.

For example, take the valve cover off, rotate the engine to see the cam markings, then count the links between. That would involve using a socket set though, and possibly buying a large socket to spin the crank, and the right torx bit to remove the valve cover and not acting all helpless.

Another example, after that, hey here's an idea, borrow a compression tester the same way that he wasn't willing to borrowed a fuel pressure regulator and check that the engine even has compression by removing the 4 torx bolts that hold the ignition cassette in place and removing some spark plugs.

g96nt 11-21-2014 06:36 PM

Drew... I love you, man... really I do.
Probably not quite as much as you love yourself... but I do.

Drew in Houston 11-21-2014 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g96nt (Post 2061545)
Drew... I love you, man... really I do.
Probably not quite as much as you love yourself... but I do.

Good, awesome then. Please enlighten us all and explain the "advanced troubleshooting" that you recommend? lol

After that you can give some instruction on the failure modes of mass air flow sensors, how Trionic 7 uses the signal, and the benefits of installation post compressor.

Oh, yeah and for sure let me know when you're ready to install a blow through setup on your daily driver wagon vs. mouthing off on the internet, offer's still on the table here to pay for the parts.

g96nt 11-21-2014 06:47 PM

Wouldn't we just be better to hug it out than discuss proper trouble shooting by watching sensor outputs via the tech2 or obd2 logger? Who would want to do things like ground injectors, manually power a fuel pump or read signal outputs of things like the crank position sensor.

Let's just hug, and I'll whisper into your ear how much your ego turns me on.

Drew in Houston 11-21-2014 07:01 PM

Okay yeah, that's weird, like you're imagining some kind of domination thing or something.. Didn't you just have a new infant there tough guy, driving that 200k mile station wagon, mouthing off on the internet? Anyway, my ego's just fine thank you. Like I told you before, consider that this applies directly to you Craig: Dunningā€“Kruger effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm still waiting for the advanced stuff. This thread already covered the first two "advanced" things that you mentioned. Checking the crank sensor isn't a bad idea at all, although, we all know that the symptoms the OP described don't match a failed or failing crank sensor lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by g96nt (Post 2061561)
Wouldn't we just be better to hug it out than discuss proper trouble shooting by watching sensor outputs via the tech2 or obd2 logger? Who would want to do things like ground injectors, manually power a fuel pump or read signal outputs of things like the crank position sensor.

Let's just hug, and I'll whisper into your ear how much your ego turns me on.


Palmer 11-21-2014 07:48 PM

christ, you people are dicks

just fuck eachother, and get it over with


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