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-   -   T7 No Start After Dash Swap (https://www.saablink.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119561)

Troup 01-08-2018 08:10 AM

T7 No Start After Dash Swap
 
The car is a 2002 9-5 Automatic

Over the holiday, I swapped dash to wrap up an interior swap from tan to black.

Dash looks great, but now the car cranks but won't start. Occasionally it will catch, run for a couple of seconds, and then shut off again.

Symptoms:

Radiator fan runs when key is on, and for about 30 seconds after key is out.

Turn signals work, but they don't show up on the instrument cluster

Tech2 shows communication with the DICE only. ALL other I-bus communications, in addition to P-bus communications are "missing"

Radio, SID, ACC, Power mirrors, all work fine. ACC - will display numbers initially, and then eventually will function normally.




I have checked related fuses. I tried disconnecting SID and other I-bus components to try and see if the car would start without them in case of short. The only one I didn't try was the TWICE unit under the seat. No luck


I have no messages that are displayed on the SID. I'm pretty sure I didn't damage wiring as I was very careful during installation, but I suppose anything is possible. Only thing that was swapped was the dash, all other components were reused.

I'm wondering if this a bad DICE or if this may be related to the immobilizer shutting off all communications to Tech II? I've tried the process I've heard of bypassing immobilizer by doing key on, push button on key, then crank. One time it started and shut off again, but not a regularly occurring procedure. No "Key not accepted" notification. I also tried a cycle of locking and unlocking with both the remote and mechanical lock on door. (I've had success with this on the 9000). Remote one wasn't as successful because the remote has always been a little iffy.

I heard from the WIS that if you have this particular problem, you can test for "short" or "open" by using the "night panel" button. Open should dim the odometer, short does nothing to odometer. My test does nothing. But I don't know if there are other issues that can interfere with the night panel / instrument cluster interaction.

Battery is a newish duralast - Tested good and recharged after cranking over and over. No luck with a jumpstart.

Worth mentioning - the OBD II port had a loose ground when I got the car. I've reinstalled the pin to the correct position per the WIS. Not super confident it's perfect, but that's not what is causing my no start.


I've read about other situations with these symptoms related to bad wiring at the instrument cluster, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with checking points in a wiring harness.



Tech II Display:

https://i.imgur.com/pQAchAk.jpg

Instrument Cluster Display w/ Key on (Gearbox light was illuminated before this issue w/ accompanying check engine MIL)

https://i.imgur.com/JyS7cG3.jpg

Troup 01-08-2018 08:52 AM

Video of start up:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k4g58xwbx6...%20PM.mov?dl=0

seriks1 01-09-2018 04:48 AM

I think you're immobilized. Have you tried to "program the immobilizer" with the tech2?

Troup 01-09-2018 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seriks1 (Post 2185993)
I think you're immobilized. Have you tried to "program the immobilizer" with the tech2?


I have not. I have very limited experience with the Tech II. I was having particular trouble navigating it because it kept giving me notifications of all of the missing BUS systems. I also figured that I couldn't access things like that because of the lack of BUS communication to everything but the DICE. Is this a function that you do through the DICE?

Can you shed some light on how to do this?

DrewP 01-09-2018 10:04 AM

Something may also still be unplugged. Since the SID and MIU are lighting up that's a good sign. Is it possible you got one connector on the cluster and not the second one, or something like that? Another dumb question - the ECU is plugged in, right?

When you press the Night Panel button on the SID, does the SID screen go off? Do any of the other dash modules turn off? The ACC, and radio should all dim.

Does the SID show the correct outside temperature?

Troup 01-09-2018 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewP (Post 2186017)
Something may also still be unplugged. Since the SID and MIU are lighting up that's a good sign. Is it possible you got one connector on the cluster and not the second one, or something like that? Another dumb question - the ECU is plugged in, right?

When you press the Night Panel button on the SID, does the SID screen go off? Do any of the other dash modules turn off? The ACC, and radio should all dim.

Does the SID show the correct outside temperature?

Everything I unplugged is/was definitely plugged back in.

ECU was never unplugged - you don't have to to remove the dash. The harness for that is in the aquarium.

Cluster only has one connector as far as I know. Maybe that's my issue. haha. But I'm pretty sure there's only one on mine.

One of the passenger side airbag connectors was initially shimmied out a little bit. That was the only thing I found that was a little weird. When I put the steering wheel back on, the clockspring clicked a bit the first time the wheel was moved because the connector wasn't in all the way. If it's not all the way in the slip, the clockspring won't turn from 12 o'clock.

But in either case, I don't see these problems causing the BUS systems to not communicate with each other. Especially after they were both resolved. I've heard of clocksprings causing sensitive horns, airbag lights, etc. But not BUS problems.


Night panel just dims the SID if I recall. Not the ACC. I'm away from the car right now. Definitely not the instrument cluster. Radio is aftermarket

Not sure about the temp gauge

seriks1 01-09-2018 04:25 PM

If you press "enter" on the tech2 a couple times you should be able to skip past the bus communication page. Try to access the TWICE and you should find an option to program immobilizer. There's a security ""wait" time (I think 4 minutes) and the programming takes a few more so make sure your battery still has a good charge

Troup 01-10-2018 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seriks1 (Post 2186033)
If you press "enter" on the tech2 a couple times you should be able to skip past the bus communication page. Try to access the TWICE and you should find an option to program immobilizer. There's a security ""wait" time (I think 4 minutes) and the programming takes a few more so make sure your battery still has a good charge

I went through some function that required a wait time. I don't even recall what it was. I'll have to play around with it some more.

What causes the car to become immobilized?

DrewP 01-10-2018 11:29 AM

It getting keyed on with some of the modules unplugged will sometimes do it, low battery voltage will sometimes do it.

avid0g 03-31-2018 10:09 AM

Go back to all the electrical connectors you have *disturbed*, even if you didn't disconnect them. Check both male and female shells. Disconnect and inspect each end very closely. Borrow strong reading glasses.

Are any contacts retracted / bent / corroded / green / powdery? It is normal to find some tin colored and some copper colored

DON'T PINCH THE PINS WITH PLYERS! Some are hollow and will crush thinner, ruining their contact force. You may find such a crushed pin.

You should have an equal number in each mating pair. Any mismatch should be a retracted connector. When you find such, try pushing each wire in until the missing one snaps into place. If it doesn't retain, it will just get pushed out again. I have adjusted the snap tabs with a razor blade, but be gentle - just a slight bend out. Push the silicon plugs in with a blunt tool like curled cardboard.

Do any pins or receptacles move much more than the others when you push on them or push on individual wires? (pull on wires gently !)

Did any wires pull out of the crimp? Again gently. You are looking for an outlier, not trying to cause more damage.

Troup 08-14-2018 07:56 AM

I had a chance to mess around with it again last week. I tried to reprogram the immobilizer without any luck.

I talked with a Saab shop about this issue and it seems like T7 should be able to start the car with all of the accessories (SID, Airbag, AC, etc.) disconnected. So even if I did disturb a connector or something like that, is that really going to keep it from starting? In my 9-5 wagon, I installed an aftermarket head unit, so the Radio / Infotainment BUS is missing on it, but doesn't cause any issues with T7.

I checked fuses once again as well verified that the grounds behind the dash are firmly attached. I think my next step is trying another DICE box.

SS929k 08-15-2018 09:18 AM

Theft device missing? I think that would cause the car not to start. Do you have the theft device? Is that married to the car? I thought everything needs to be married to the ECU.

DrewP 08-15-2018 10:45 AM

Do all the other CAN modules still show as missing? When you swap the DICE unit you will need to go into it and I think program the VIN number to match the car and the ECM, otherwise it'll immobilize the car too.

SS929k 08-16-2018 10:04 AM

I would assume since the ECU doesn't see the immobilizer, a fail safe would be for the ECU to trigger a non start.

DrewP 08-16-2018 10:47 AM

I believe the MIU is required for the car to run on T7 cars (definitely on T8), it controls a lot of the CANBUS stuff. You need to have correctly programmed ECM, BCM, TWICE, and I think MIU. The VIN #'s in all of those need to match the VIN in BCM, and they all need to be communicating with each other (viewable in Tech2).

g96nt 08-16-2018 11:55 AM

re-reading your post, it sounds like it could be similar to what I just dealt with in my 900.

I hit a bump, and the car died. flat. ded. ECU read alive and well when "on", and fuel pump got voltage. I was watching the tach bounce, and all sensors read correctly, even while cranking, but no start. it would occasionally sputter for a second, but die out. I assumed it was a dead Fuel pump. after trying everything, including trying to jump the immobilizer (possible on T5), I got frustrated-enough to send 'er off to Harvey. It turned-out that my immobilizer/twice/whatever had a handful of cold solder joints, and after simply re-soldering the spots, all is well.

Does this car have issues with the sunroof draining, or the elephant snout?
It's timing could just be coincidental.

Troup 08-16-2018 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g96nt (Post 2194501)
re-reading your post, it sounds like it could be similar to what I just dealt with in my 900.

I hit a bump, and the car died. flat. ded. ECU read alive and well when "on", and fuel pump got voltage. I was watching the tach bounce, and all sensors read correctly, even while cranking, but no start. it would occasionally sputter for a second, but die out. I assumed it was a dead Fuel pump. after trying everything, including trying to jump the immobilizer (possible on T5), I got frustrated-enough to send 'er off to Harvey. It turned-out that my immobilizer/twice/whatever had a handful of cold solder joints, and after simply re-soldering the spots, all is well.

Does this car have issues with the sunroof draining, or the elephant snout?
It's timing could just be coincidental.

I've had the same thought about this being a coincidence. Signs point to a bad TWICE or DICE module. But that would be a really annoying coincidence. I'd have a hard time accepting it.


The car actually had AC drain issues leading the rear footwell flooding. (similar to what happens with the sunroof drains). However, that was in 2015 ish and have put many miles on the car since then.


I have the tech2, so it may be worth a shot to try a new TWICE

DrewP 08-16-2018 01:47 PM

I only ever had to replace a DICE module I think once, but it was for something like this, no communication with some modules, random driveability problems or no starts.

Since you can code the modules that's probably a good place to start before spending endless additional time without being able to rule those out.

SS929k 08-22-2018 06:52 AM

Hey,

Yesterday I had an issue with some modules not being read from a TechII yesterday after I had changed some sound system wires. I think your issue may be harness related of relay related based off of my experience.

When I brought my car to a mechanic yesterday to run a scan with his TechII he told me that some of my modules were not being read from his TechII.

Play with the wiring harness a bit and make sure that you don't have some of the plugs that clip into the bottom of the fuse box in the wring slots. Also make sure that some of the important fuses are not blown.

Troup 08-23-2018 09:32 AM

I'm looking for cheap DICE to try. Does it need to be married with the TechII?

My research says no.


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