FPR Thoughts

[stevehayes01]

Ok so after going through some threads and doing some of my own research I have confirmed that the VW 1.8 and 2.0T's use the same model FPR that the 99-02 9-3 SAAB's do. I know there is someone on here who has fitted a 4bar frp from a V'dub on their car but just wanted to see if anyone else has done it?

Also the cost and parts availability is much greater and cheaper for the Dubs than it is for the exact same SAAB part. Look at things like this FPR that is fully adjustable from 3 to 5 bar and is a direct drop in replacement for only $139. I actually borrowed one from a guy out here in Jax just to test fit and it goes right in just like it was a stock unit.

http://www.bahnbrenner.com/media/php...1774&catid=140



And just the new 4bar FPR from a Dub is running $59 dollars and is 100% identical to our setup plus offers .5 bar over most of the current SAAB upgrade offerings. I do realize that tuners write software to specs like a FPR to account for fuel but Iwould think with the 4bar over the 3.5 you could allow for more customizable tuning options and eliminate any possibility of lean conditions if done right.


http://www.performance-cafe.com/prod...roducts_id=767



So I guess I am just curious how everyone feels in relation to using parts for Audi's and Dub's on our cars. Hopefully opening up some cheaper avenues for some of our upgrades.

OEM Spec from 3 to 4.5 Bar with 90 degree or straight fittings for $59
http://www.performance-cafe.com/prod...oducts_id=1435

[WyldSaabMan]

thanks for the links! I say it will work just fine especially if tuned correctly, there would be no reason that we couldn't use them

[stevehayes01]

I am going to do some testing and data logging with a 4 bar fixed FPR in the next few weeks to see how it works and report back my findings.
I think it is crazy that Maptun, Nordic and those guys charge 130 for a 3.5Bar FPR that you can buy the exact same part number for less than 1/2 the price.

[WyldSaabMan]

I agree its crazy, but they pretty much blind the buyers and make them think they need to buy one from them

[abdukted1456]

I would not put that without the right software to match. especially t7.

[stevehayes01]

When I added the adjustable for the hour or so that it was on I had it set for 3.5bar and my A/F changed by 1 point to the rich side. I know the T7 is a strange beast but with the bolt ons i have on the car already (FMIC, 3"Dp etc.) the car is running in the stoich section but at the base of stoich. With the 3.5bar it put it right in the high middle of stoich (12.5 on the data logger) but not pig rich. It is still my belief that the T7 can adapt and change to adjust for many bolt ons without software changes. Ricot is perfect example of that example.

We will see how it runs and go from there.

[GenuineSaab]

Steve, If you do that watch the A/F ratio before the cat with a wideband o2. (Measuring after the cat will read wrong) You will have problems with fuel trim. Most apparent when in and out of closed loop during transition from cruise to WOT acceleration. Thats about all I can tell, sorry. I have been playing with this lately.

[stevehayes01]

Thanks for the Tip Nick. I am lucky to have the benefit of some generous V'dub guys here in Florida so I will have a wideband setup for it shortly. The issue I noticed when I had my car on a wideband previously was after the bolt ons it was (understandably) running in the 12.8-13 Range at wide open throttle. Now with the adjustable set to the 3.5 I was getting readings from 12-12.5 so it brought it right into the ball park.

[abdukted1456]

it is my opinion (and totally OPINION) from all the reading I have done here and saabcentral and emailing/phone conversations with two top tuners ...

is that the tuners like Nordic/Genuinesaab, Maptun, SQR, HIRSCH know all the ins and outs about t7 and how complex/sensitive it really is.... that is why I am going to stick to "staged" software packages and not add things that are not reccommended in my t7 car without the software to match or consulting my tuner first to see if it will "play nice" with the current stage.

I heard once that the best harware thing you can do for a t7 engine is to add a better cooling IC. Not neccesarily bigger or better flowing, but better cooling, as t7 makes best (and SAFEST)power on lowest possible boost to meet required airmass. colder air = less boost.

someone correct me if i am wrong.

well IC is next on my list....

FPR I would not add without the S/W... nordic, maptun and Hirsch all seem to advise against uprated FPR w/o SW and I regard them as some of the best tuners!

[GenuineSaab]

watch those transitions. also cold start richness. Not a big problem in FL though.

Also a while back I was approached by a company in China that would sell knockoff regulators. I have seen enough factory regulators blow that I will stick with best quality I can find for my cars. The ones I sell are new Bosch.

Also for cheap you can modify factory regulator. I have a modified "c" clamp that works great in the car even! http://genuinesaab.com/gallery/viggen/IMG_5527?full=1
You need to activate the fuel pump with tech2. If you just keep bumping the key and measuring the pressure it will be too low.

[WyldSaabMan]

its just too bad we all dont have tech2's haha. Man i would love to work in that shop

[stevehayes01]

Originally Posted by GenuineSaab

watch those transitions. also cold start richness. Not a big problem in FL though.

Originally Posted by GenuineSaab

Also a while back I was approached by a company in China that would sell knockoff regulators. I have seen enough factory regulators blow that I will stick with best quality I can find for my cars. The ones I sell are new Bosch.

Also for cheap you can modify factory regulator. I have a modified "c" clamp that works great in the car even! http://genuinesaab.com/gallery/viggen/IMG_5527?full=1
You need to activate the fuel pump with tech2. If you just keep bumping the key and measuring the pressure it will be too low.

Uhhh yeah cold start is not an issue here in Florida...was 75 at 7am this morning. I also dont get on boost until the car is 100% in a warm state and has been for a few minutes.

I completly agree on not using cheap knock offs and such on something like the FPR. The VW units are OE Bosch with identical part numbers to the SAAB one (3 bar to 3 bar). Now the adjustable I listed in the begining of my post is one that I have actually used and is a very well built piece (imho) and is very widely used in the Audi and VW world so I trust it.


Abdukted -- I respect and completly understand where your coming from on not wanting to destroy your ride or add things that are detrenmental to it but sometimes you have to take a risk to get a return. After my FMIC and DP my A/F leaned out some. This is a noted response to mods without software that is to be expected. By putting the FPR on it just for the hour I ran it my A/F leveled back out to what it should be. From the sounds of it even Nick is playing with tweaking the FPR some for fun as well. The last thing I want to do is blow up my daily driver too but I must experiment and learn.

I also have a belief that when a company sells you a prebuilt staged package for an upgrade well you get just that a package. For instance the rep at Maptun told me verbatim "The only difference in a Stage 1 ECU and a Stage 2 is that stage 2 needs an exhaust with it" . So that tells me the T7 will adapt to the change of the free flowing exhaust so why would it not adapt to other changes to the car is my personal opinion. And like I said before the tuners would tell Ricot that without software he is hurting his car but 219WHP later I just dont see it. So this is more of a personal quest for me.

[2k193turbo]

It will be interesting to see if those of us without custom software could use an adjustable FPR in conjunction with hardware mods to tweak our A/F.

Really interested thread guys. Keep us updated on your results Steve.

Trionic is techy, but it's not magical (or is it )

[abdukted1456]

Originally Posted by stevehayes01

"The only difference in a Stage 1 ECU and a Stage 2 is that stage 2 needs an exhaust with it" . So that tells me the T7 will adapt to the change of the free flowing exhaust so why would it not adapt to other changes to the car is my personal opinion.

well it will adapt I hear maybe 25% and a sport exhuast is a facotry accessory sold by SAAB without needing an ECU tune so THAT I agree it will adapt slightly to a catback, because it falls within the range of 25% difference... after all stage 1 and 2 difference from maptun is what 5 HP and 10Nm torque??? so adding the exhuast seems to stay within the 25% deviation there as well as on stock t7 SW......

but as far as things bigger than that, stage 3 and beyond, or changing fueling parts without a new SW map so the ECU knows what is going on....than I think you are defintely "experiementing" and I understand where you are coming from too with giving it a shot...but for me I am not as adventurous....I will leave that type of experimentation to you and rico!

good dyno numbers are one thing but a healthy tune is another. Also I know once I thought I remembered rico saying he reset the ECU and got great numbers but I wonder if he did not reset before the dyno and drove around on stock t7 ECU with all the extra HW for say 5000 miles, would the ECU have adapted down by then quite a bit and would the numbers be as high?

there are what 1000+ maps??? and things that probably are not apparent or easy to see buried deep in the software somplace that are very very important. definitely an interesting topic for sure so keep us updated on your findings.

[abdukted1456]

also Steve you mentioned 219 WHP but at SOC I think he only put like 200 or 205 HP??? and 200 or 205??? ft-lbs... whereas I put 215 HP and 240 ft-lbs on a stage 1 with no downpipe, no exhuast, no FMIC, just a air filter and ECU.

so when we were on the same dyno on the same day with basically the same car it seemed to me like the result was better with uprgraded SW than stock SW and tons of HW that might put stocvk t7 values out of the 25% range?

but that is just my assessment, maybe his car was not running good for some reason that day?

I know he got great results on anther dyno, and I also got different results on another dyno, only 197 HP /227 ft-lbs....(same setup, stage 1 except inbox JRairfilter this time, no open cone kit)

but at SOC were were same dyno same day. Now I suppose the only way to REALLY compare for sure would be the SAME CAR , SAME DAY , SAME DYNO, with the two diff setups....

[2k193turbo]

Duckted it's kinda interesting comparing your car at the time (filter and Software) with Ricos (bunch of bolt ons).

They're both autos, and posted dyno numbers in the same ball park.
It's a good software vs hardware first comparison.

It'd be really interesting to run a side by side dyno test and compare the A/F ratios and more importantly EGTs.

[abdukted1456]

yep too bad they did not have A/F on that dyno.

it showed to me that we did get similar results, but I think I got more torque for sure with S/W where as for HP we were much closer.

[stevehayes01]

See that tells me that the T7 is very capable of correcting allot of issues and for letting you go past what one would normally expect to get. I doubt the EGT's are going to be that much different either on the 2 setups. Maptuns stage 1 is pretty mild so it should be comparable. I still find it amazing that 2 cars almost identical from birth put down such similiar numbers. With the 9-3 HOT's SAAB's rated WHP was list at 175-180HP and for Ricot to add bolt ons and pull 200+HP off a car that everyone says it is impossible to do is simply cool.

It's for that reason that I am willing to experiment on my car some (within limits). The other factor is that if I kill my car I am going to be the one rebuilding it and I am prepared to take that risk.

I have also gotten information from a tuner that they implemented the "Resistor Mod" to a 9-3 MAF and pulled 28WHP while maintaining a 12.5 A/F ratio. So allot of the "constants" that we are told about SAAB's dont seem to ring true when really put to the test.

SAAB's are a captive tuner market with only 3 Top tuners producing ECU's for them so who knows how much of the stigma out there is actually factual or false. Thats my mission to find out!

A good example of why I want to push the standards comes from the early saab days. Look back to the APC in the older C900's and thank those individuals that proved you did not need a $500 burned EPROM to modify the APC when you could goto Radio Shack and for $5 duplicate the exact results.

[mike saunders]

Better to run way rich with those T7 pistons.

Let us know how it all comes out....

Curious to see what happens....

[stevehayes01]

Will keep you posted.