Party's Over

[Snabb SAAB]

Originally Posted by Jameson

Have you noticed how silly Mini prices can get?

You can spend over $40k on a loaded one.

Absurd.

Same goes for BMWs, Volvos, etc. You can theoretically buy a 3-series in the upper 30s, if it is bare bones stock, but all the goodies you want will co$t you dearly and most are in the mid 40s to low 50s. To compete with VW BMW will have to follow their marketing strategy which is to offer very few options (at least in the US).

[snowsaab]

BMW buying SAAB would be probably the best thing to ever happen to the brand, and i mean both of them. I see alot of benefit to BMW purchasing SAAB, the buy would be dirt cheap for them, they could finally have a FWD brand without hurting their own RWD legacy. Though, dont they have the new 1 Series in a turbo version now? I just hope they'd follow through with the new 9-3 and price them right.

Im rooting for the idea.

[Jameson]

Originally Posted by Snabb SAAB

Same goes for BMWs, Volvos, etc. You can theoretically buy a 3-series in the upper 30s, if it is bare bones stock, but all the goodies you want will co$t you dearly and most are in the mid 40s to low 50s. To compete with VW BMW will have to follow their marketing strategy which is to offer very few options (at least in the US).

BMW is not an entry level brand the way that Mini is.

A $40k+ FWD sub compact with a 1.6L engine is silly.

[Snabb SAAB]

Originally Posted by Jameson

BMW is not an entry level brand the way that Mini is.

A $40k+ FWD sub compact with a 1.6L engine is silly.

MINI (not Mini) is not an entry level brand by no one's assumption. It's a niche, or boutique, car maker. People who buy their cars want either something small and chique or something small and fast. Anyone who thinks of MINI as an entry level brand is either mistaken or has too much money.

But yes, a small subcompact for $40k+ (fwd or not) is silly.

[DrewP]

Umm... the Mini dealer around the corner from where I work where my Dad bought his '03 S has on their website listed price on new '12 Cooper (non-S) hardtop with automatic trans for $24.5, or lease deal for $0 down and $249/mo for 36 months.

Sounds pretty entry-level to me. TONS of them here in LA, even with automatic stated fuel economy is 29/37.

[mike saunders]

Originally Posted by Snabb SAAB

I think SAAB under the BMW stable would be great for BMW. The SAAB brand allows BMW to have a bonafide VW competitor, which they don't have with MINI.

Saab hasn't been a bonafide VW competitor for at least 5 years. Anyone who tells you that it is hasn't actually driven VW models.

SAABs can be everything from small hatches (900, 9-2, 9-3 or Golf size) to SUVs (9-4x, 9-7, Touareg), with large sedans and wagons (9-5, Passat) in between. The front wheel drive layout doesn't compromise BMW's own design architecture, and the larger vehicle size doesn't compromise MINI's.

You're making a huge assumption here, mainly that the existing architecture for the 9-3, 9-4 and 9-5 will be part of the sale. 9-7 is as dead as Socrates.

SAAB has plenty of advanced technology (however much of it is not GM's)...

Stop right there. This is pure Saabsunited fanboi rainbow-farting unicorn stuff.

No, Saab actually doesn't have plenty of advanced technology, and not really much license-free tech at all, which is the reason why potential buyers have to deal with GM if they don't want an empty factory for the next 18-24 months. This is the whole reason finding a buyer is so tough. Yes, they do have the new Phoenix platform, but that's only gone into early development stages, and then would need further testing with other powerplants and non-GM parts.

If BMW plays this possible purchase right this would be a win-win situation for most parties involved (sorry, Moonracer, I think US dealers might be the losers here, but who knows if there won't be a deal with SAAB USA or what's left of it).

Here's where I agree with you, but for slightly different reasons. Forget VW. BMW likely fears competition from Hyundai, Kia and Nissan, all of which have become more upscale and are starting to challenge Euro brands in terms of quality -- and don't have the negative brand connotations that BMW has in some countries. (In China, BMW drivers are seen as bigger dicks than here...)

The Munich-based automaker BMW, on the other hand, has found itself in a contrary position. Since entering the Chinese market, BMW has acquired a reputation as a vehicle for the arrogant and the rash, making it largely off-limits to wealthy officials who prefer a low-key public image.

Part of this stereotype is rooted in a 2003 incident in which a young female driver in the northeastern city of Harbin intentionally ran over and killed an impoverished man who had accidentally dented her BMW X5. Despite the transparent nature of the case — a clear motive and numerous eyewitnesses — the case was settled out of court for $11,000. The incident was seen as driving a wedge between China’s rich and poor, damaging BMW’s nascent image.

More recently, a driver in a BMW M6 struck and killed a pedestrian in May during an illegal street race in the city of Nanjing, setting off a public outcry.

“If it hadn’t been a BMW, I don’t think it would have been as big of a deal,” said a young man who had taken part in the race and spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was awaiting trial. “Had it been all Toyotas, Mitsubishis or even Audis, I don’t think it would have provoked as dire a reaction.”

[Jameson]

Originally Posted by Snabb SAAB

MINI (not Mini) is not an entry level brand by no one's assumption. It's a niche, or boutique, car maker. People who buy their cars want either something small and chique or something small and fast. Anyone who thinks of MINI as an entry level brand is either mistaken or has too much money.

But yes, a small subcompact for $40k+ (fwd or not) is silly.

I said BMW is not in the same way as mini which boutique or not is among the lowest entry points into German engineering.

[NewWilOrder]

BMW had already signed onto an agreement to sell their 1.6 ltr. (MINI) engine to SAAB back in Sept. 2010.

Seems like a "retro" SAAB 92 concept would make the most sense:

Saab 92 enligt Ed Gray - något för Muller? :: Nyheter - auto motor & sport

[GA]

They don't sell MINI's out of the existing BMW dealerships, do they? At least I don't think so. I certainly could see them selling Saabs and MINI's together though.

But I would bet there would be separate Saab dealerships, with adjustments based on geography and the local politics of the BMW dealerships in the area.

It also depends on whether BMW can get the rights to sell the 9-5 and 9-4x. If they can, they would need the existing dealer network to sell now. If they don't and we have to wait two years for the next Saabs, then there's little point to keeping the existing dealer network around (except perhaps for warranty and repair work).

But if you're BMW, why would buy a brand and then get rid of the best brand ambassadors you have -- the existing Saab dealer? If you're still a Saab dealer at this point, you're committed to the brand, no ifs ands or buts.

There will be adjustments, no doubt. I'm curious what BMW will think about co-located dealerships, like Morrie's with Cadillac, or Schmelz with VW. I'd imagine any standalone Saab dealer should be fine.

[Moonracer]

Remember when the deal with koenigsegg was almost done 1/2 of the exsisting dealers got ternimation letters. Me included.

[Lendo]

Wow. I hope this works out to keep Saab alive.

[IronJoe]

I can't imagine why BMW would want Saab.

First of all, assuming you aren't leveraging GM tech, what do they actually *have*? ONE concept car riding around on a custom-built vaporware platform? That, and the name SAAB which is an immediate money-loser. Thanks to everything that went down, that name is synonymous with the phrase "loss-making".

BMW would do better to literally *make up* a sub-brand out of absolutely THIN AIR, and leverage their existing platforms and engine configurations to compete with Hyundai/Nissan/VW/etc.

They could call it "Fartsauce" and it would sell better than "Saab". Use the Mini platform and engines, make FWD sedans and hatchbacks that get good MPG, handle well, but don't need to be built in Sweden or Germany. They would be entry level enough to compete with the Korean manufacturers, but wouldn't soil the BMW brand image.

Vehicle Lineup:
Fartsauce Hatchback: Essentially a cheap mini. Built in Mexico or whatever.
Fartsauce Sedan: Think Jetta - stretched Mini platform, FWD, etc.

...And expand it from there. You could even have a Fartsauce Hot Hatch/Sports Sedan (Code Brown Edition) which would be a GTI/GLI competitor using JCW stuffs.

[Turbo00]

I'm just picturing the advertisements...

"Enjoy the efficient power of the new Fartsauce 15x. Available in both sedan and hatchback, starting at $21,995.

Fartsauce...because American yuppies buy anything from Germany."

[Lendo]

There are some Jews at work that refuse to buy German cars.

[IronJoe]

Originally Posted by Lendo

There are some Jews at work that refuse to buy German cars.

I'm sure they are ready and willing to pay retail for a 2011 Saab

[Snabb SAAB]

Originally Posted by mike saunders

Saab hasn't been a bonafide VW competitor for at least 5 years. Anyone who tells you that it is hasn't actually driven VW models.

Maybe not now, but BMW needs and probably wants a VW competitor in its home turf where VW is still king. The MINI line up cannot fill that space. SAAB could.

Originally Posted by mike saunders

You're making a huge assumption here, mainly that the existing architecture for the 9-3, 9-4 and 9-5 will be part of the sale. 9-7 is as dead as Socrates.

I am not talking about the specific cars, but their sizes for comparison. "new SAAB" would need new non-GM platforms (MINI? Phoenix? BMW 1?), and probably new names too.

Originally Posted by mike saunders

Stop right there. This is pure Saabsunited fanboi rainbow-farting unicorn stuff.

You are right, most stuff SAAB currently has now most likely has a GM patent under it. But the potential is there, with the manufacturing facilities and know how of the personnel (as long as they don't find stable employment elsewhere first, which is already happening).

Originally Posted by mike saunders

Here's where I agree with you, but for slightly different reasons. Forget VW. BMW likely fears competition from Hyundai, Kia and Nissan, all of which have become more upscale and are starting to challenge Euro brands in terms of quality -- and don't have the negative brand connotations that BMW has in some countries.

Like I mentioned, in Germany VW is still king. It's a market that BMW leaves largely untapped. And a vehicle that is a VW competitor could definitely be a Nissan, Hyundai or Toyota competitor, albeit a bit more upscale and expensive. BMW has the bad connotation, which it does not share with MINI, why would it share with SAAB?

Originally Posted by IronJoe

They could call it "Fartsauce" and it would sell better than "Saab".

It's German, make it Fahrtsoße, or make it German-Swedish: Fahrtsås.

"The new Fahrtsås 90-1! Meatballs meet sauerkraut!"

Originally Posted by Lendo

There are some Jews at work that refuse to buy German cars.

Half the Jews in Miami drive Mercedes (which in itself is a Jewish name!).

[gm]

MINI is a entry level car... entry level BMW.

$25K for a base low/mid 100 HP mini..... $10K more for the S models if I recall..... fiat 500 is what, $15K ish & to me that's a entry level car. The MINI coupe s is mid $30's or something like that. Can't believe people pay that much for the cars......

I wonder if part of BMW's reasoning is the possibility of saab dealerships here in the states being able to also sell MINI.

Interesting to see what the future does hold for saab..... if they are able to come back & make that new 93 that was being circulated a few months ago..... sign me up! That is when it's available in a SPG/Viggen model replacement

[aireeca]

It's really over. Fucking shit.

[aireeca]

And get this shit:

Following the filing of the Involuntary Petition and prior to the entry of the Order
for Relief, with the consent of Ally, Debtor conducted an on-line auction sale of its Heritage
Vehicle Collection. The Heritage vehicles were owned and held by Debtor as non-inventory 3
show pieces not intended for resale. The auction brochure is attached as Exhibit A. The auction
sale generated net proceeds of sale $403,304.49 (“Heritage Sale Proceeds”) which are currently
held in a special bank account maintained by Debtor. Debtor expressly represented to Ally that
all Heritage Sale Proceeds would remain in the special account until the further order of the
Court.

[jk88]

Originally Posted by aireeca

It's really over. Fucking shit.

Not trying to be a SU Eternal Optimist, but you have to figure SCNA is toast in virtually any scenario. Most of the US dealers have left or moved on, and a new owner with existing US distribution (Bimmer) would lump them into their own network.

Tom Donney and some other guy split the whole collection.