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Old 09-03-2009, 04:57 PM   #1
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The valve spring/high revs thread

Okay, please continue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
Motor is with volvo springs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
Head is with orig parts besides the springs, so in my oppionion you dont need more HW there to have it hold up for higher revs. The hydraulic lifters will become the limiting factor and no use therefore to rev it much past 8k. Same applies to cams, if they are std no real use to rev past 7k, since the engine does not breath and will just lead to high egt's if you push it. The 2.3 also slitly different story since it is stroked and strain from reving are real when pushed to high rpms.

Oil will always come out from the breather with high bhp/tq, but put the catch can there or a bottle too see what the quantity is, since before its know its hard to say what is normal and not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
Not sure what your hw issue is, but I was just pointing out the irony that you were requesting more and not reaching it and I was requesting less and getting more. I have a higher base boost spring, so to get it to stop at 21psi took some tweaking, but went out again and lowered the reg kon mat to 1% all the way up and the boost overshoot map to 5 and now its locking in at the boost pressure I want right now, which is 21psi.

For the first time, I spent the time to get second gear to remain in traction with my new LSD. I put the reg kon for second gear at 0% and turned the request to .10 bar and now its like riding on base boost and I am right at the verge of traction and not banging on the rev limit in second, that is what caused my valves to float or whatever happened and I had piston to valve interference.

Reps at trollspeed said the volvo springs were not strong enough for 7500rpm and that it would happen again unless I uprated to a set of stronger valve springs, which they have and are rated to a max of 13mm valve lift. I may try them just to be safe, don't want to build another head anytime soon

I was only wanting to point out to you that the car at 18psi is very fast, but once you have it for a month or two and get used to it and get your hw issue figured out, then try it at 25psi and you will be amazed at how different the power feels

good luck,

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
I wish I knew what caused my issue, but did notice you were not banging off the rev limit and I wonder if that had a lot to do with it since I hit the rev limit hard while spinning in second gear.

Maybe when you keep that from occuring, its ok to run a little higher, but if I drag race it, I will be on the rev limit in first and second for sure.

I was told the volvo springs will not hold up to the 7500rpm limit and its just a matter of time before they float again. I am a little gunshy now,

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
Hopefully somebody can provide new measured values how stiff the strong ones are and what the spring to spring variation is, since this we all know already

150-200k km original T5 springs

Pre-tension 37mm (0mm lift) 25kg
10mm lift - 54kg
13mm lift -62 kg
bottoms out at 14mm lift
all 16 springs with 10mm lift
57 , 53 , 56 , 54 , 55 , 57 , 54 , 55 , 57 , 52 , 52 , 56 , 53 , 52 , 53 , 53 kg

New Vovlo B230 springs
with pre-tension - 28kg
10mm lift -62kg
13mm lift- 73kg
whole set +- 2 kg of each other
botttoms when lift 15mm

Saab after market strong springs
with pre-tension - 28kg
10mm lift - 67kg
13mm lift-78 kg
bottoms when lift 18mm
whole set with 10mm lift 56 , 66 , 60 , 60 , 63 , 65 , 70 , 68 , 62 , 73 , 61 , 64 , 71 , 72 , 64 , 72 kg
deviation 17kg between the loosest and the stiffest, on average 65kg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
I should have taken more measurements. We only measured pre- tension real quick and compressed tension and the volvo were about 10# stiffer on the volvo springs.

What are the aftermarket springs you speak of? Are they the trollspeed?

I wish your data was in #, I will have to convert it all...

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
The after market are the normal "stiff springs" for saab sold by various tuners. Dunno if trollspeed uses some other brand or not.
copy past the figures to excel, like 1min job to covert them to #
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
Yea, after more research, talked to a Saab Racer and he stated he had nothing but issues with the volvo springs and will not run them again. He stated I would be better with the stock t5 springs shimmed instead of the volvo springs and that it would just be a matter of time before I had valve float again with a 7500rpm limit and the current volvo springs.

Will look into updating springs to a stiffer brand and keep my rpm limit around 7200 for the time being. Don't want it to break anytime soon after the money and effort I put into re-building a new head,

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by comtrang View Post
Who is this guy you talked to? Just curious; Saab racer sounds pretty cool
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvadenais View Post
I also heard that the volvo springs at high RPMs don't compress as far as they should and can wreck a head. Funny, a saab racer also told me this
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
We all have our "racer buddies" or whom ever to listen to, but based on experieces from my second car and half a dozen other saabs in the whp class of 500++ i know they are adequate enough to be used in this type of applications. Secondly when the head was off few weeks back had the springs also checked and measured by a proff cyl head guy (builds rally car heads for living) at the same time when he repaired the head and comments where the same.
Anyhow being the spring what stiffnes ever the combination of revs and back pressure will eventually bee to much, but is it then a problem of the spring or problem of the reasons
But if neither the back pressure nor max revs the engine sees during the time its pounded agaist the limiter is known, it kind-of lame to toss the blame on a component which many use and have used with succes for years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenuineSaab View Post
I am running 8400 with a more aggressive lift and duration camshaft than you are using john We have done some high rpm tuning on it in steady state. Have you ever steady state mapped one above 7K? Thats quite a bit of time up there with no issues.
Cheap springs, 276 10.4mm cams 10-40 Castrol GTX Some light mods to keep the oil pressure up.
Log from a typical drag run: http://genuinesaab.com/gallery/20Dragstrip/log1g?full=1
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
Yea, I know, your name was mentioned by the swedish racer who says he knows you swear by them, but he has had nothing but trouble with them and I myself had a failure. When you have two well know respected Saab racers that have been doing this for over 15 years and not just 6-8 months, I tend to believe what they say. I am sure you have had good luck so far, but that does not mean a valve float is not in your future

Since I had a failure, I am less likely to let this ride and will be putting in a stronger valve spring before I go up in my rev limit again.

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
Call the guys at trollspeed and see what they say about volvo springs

When those guys and others say they have had multiple failures and would never run them, it makes me think twice about it.

I had a failure, my cams were in the exact same position, nothing in my valve train moved, yet I had piston to valve interference. Valve float is the only thing that really makes sense and now that I have heard from two companies that race and run high rev limits that they too have had failures with the springs that I am running, I will think twice about it.

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by a12 View Post
I think Trollspeed probably know better than anybody about anything that has to do with modding a Saab. They basically set the standard by which all others are judged.

What is the main problem with the volvo springs, are they poor quality or are they not the correct dimension for our application? Which volvos were/are they used in and are they having problems with them? If not it may be a fitment issue.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:59 PM   #2
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And..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
They are the ones sold by Nick and others as an upgrade. I was told to measure the colapsed tension of the spring and the issue would become apparent, not the pre-tension so much, but the collapsed spring load. I was told to compare my stock ones to the uprated volvo ones I have and the issue would be easily seen.

Its not just one case either, one racer claimed multiple issues and then there is trollspeed and their experience and then I have had my experience. There is more than enough examples in my mind "not to risk it". Until I can come up with a better solution, I will be keeping my rev band down.

This is put out as a warning, not as a slam on the springs, if I had not had an issue, I would not be saying anything, but 1500.00 bucks later and I think its worth mentioning,

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
In our enthusiasm to tell me whom the "race guy" was you once again seem to have missed the point of my post, which was to size the components according to need, not based on a "sleeve factor".... Anyhow when you speak of trollspeed and the example cases, try to be more specific than just "there has been failures", since that would only lead to the conclusion, that the stiffest spring one can find would be the best one and is the size which suits all needs...

But like I wrote above, there are reasons why valves begin to float and the spring tesion is only one factor in that equation. But back to the trollspeed cars, majority of which there is specs of are with big exhaust valves and if it does not ring any bells how it alters the equation in terms of valve float, think again since it the larger diamer increases the opening force created by back pressure by 20%. Looking at the figures above the volvo spring at 10mm lift is 20% stronger than std and if used with the big valve wont be much better than a std size valve with std spring.

Generally spekaing the world is filled with examples where the reason of failure is tossed on a componets with out thinking the whole process through, where it went wrong which lead to the failure. A classic example is the shit T5 head gaskat which many blame that it wont hold, but far to few people actuatty take into account that it works a very good "fuse" to save the rest of the engine if tuning is from the rear and eliminating this fuse often lead to other nice problems if the original cause it not fixed. For intance a well known swedish tuner ran a car on the strip and it liked to toss out the gasket, but after was replaced with a metal one and since then two sets of pistons have failed, and most likely the orig would have been just fine if one would have fixed the real reason.
Same applies to the valve float, one can of course stiffen the spring tension for ever, but speanding a little time analysing why it did not work for me when it works for many others will make the engine more healty and can spare you the next repair, which can arrouse.

Anyhow all credit for Trollspeed and all the racers buddies out there, but there are plenty more ways than one to build a fast/ powerful saab, and trying to force a "one size" fits for all pattern with HW parts, I have given up long time ago and build my cars based on filtered information from here and there and based on own studies and references from "near by" saabs. But when you speak to this buddy of ours next time ask how he feels of running the std bottom engine with 310bhp/litre and std head gasket and bolts with 2.3bar boost I'am sure it wont be recommended, but can say it has lasted already more hard pulls than many other well built saab engines with "brand name parts" built by these same pro you refer to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a12 View Post
So you're saying the only reason these volvo springs have failed is because they were used with a larger exhaust valve (more mass=more inertia)?
Have there been any failures with these springs using stock valves that you know of besides John's car?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
I ordered two sets of the troll speed valve springs, one for my car and one for a race engine I am building. Will take the measurements of all 3, stock t5 springs, volvo and trollspeed.

Many issues with the racer in the NE, Trollspeed, ie Frank said many issues on their side of the pond with them. I am curious to see the differeences and measure the volvo against the stock ones and see what Frank meant by saying compress them and compare your measurements. I thought I had a difference of 10#, ie the volvo springs being about 10# heavier at full compression. I will get all the specs and report back in a while,

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenuineSaab View Post
Ill keep the cheap springs in my motor.. They are not a problem for many faster cars. I know of a couple using more revs than Vig or I and no issues. All the relevant spring data is posted in the thread. You know running too much spring is a problem the same as too less right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
was also my point that the strogest one is not the winner... but like said one should study what the other parameters what relate to the problem of valve float/collision, to get to the bottom if the problem is in the spring or something is there something else one should fix.

John is it possible for you to elaborate more about the cars you/Frank refer to as ones having problems? A bad reference of a part means nothing as long as one knows what it was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a12 View Post
I've got the springs from Nick in my head, I guess these are the volvo ones as well. Everything seems to be running fine with them, no problems yet.
Actually swithced back to stock T5 cams-Enem cams made it idle like crap and I kept gettinga CEL. With stock cams, there's a little less power at top end, but everywhere else it seems better, so I might actually leave it this way.
How is everybody elses idle with Enem cams?
Sorry, not trying to threadjack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
That is why I said to call them at Trollspeed. Basically told they are crap and if I keep running them at 7500rpm, its just a matter of time before they fail again. RedBull 9k says he had multiple issues and failures with them and I would be better off running stock t5 springs with spacers.

They were fine at 7200rpm for over a year, it was the 7500rpm limit that put them over the edge. Just the fact that other people have had the same issue as me is enough proof for me to switch. The troll speed springs are only slightly stiffer anyway, its not a huge difference. Part of the issue was also explained to me as being the enem cam angle combined with the volvo spring and it was a recipe for disaster.

I don't care what other people run, they failed on me and I will not be running them above 7200rpm in my car and for the motors I build, they will be getting the trollspeed springs from now on.

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
I was told many failures by the red bull 9k and on the other side of the pond.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehayes01 View Post
I have never heard of failures with the Volvo springs when run under 7500RPM or so on any car that has them installed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
Searched the majority of saab forums on this side of pond but did not find a single negative comment regarding the volvo springs, thus are found in tens of cars which are driven both on quater mile and other track events and see alot of revs. On top of this have the close by references and are also in my project car which has reved happily past 8k for quit a while now.
Quoting the spring to be a 7k spring is just plain BS, and commenting it to better to run a standard spring is even more obsurd, when we all know that the spring almost bottoms out if you mount fast cams in the car.

If one needs more spring in the head or in the pressure plate, it is fine we all are free to do what we want, but sometimes its more than wise to look the whole chain trough with a though am I doing the correctly since i breka stuff others dont, thus they run more revs, more TQ ,more power and most of all more RUNS. Finding from where its stated that a component does not null the results obtained by other, no mattar how long time they have been in business, sorry.
But like siad needed spring rate depends on many parametrs and RPM is only one of them to which it cannot be tied to, meaning you cant say a spring is good for xxx RPM. If the relevant parameters go "outside" where they can be the results is collision, just that plain simple. Has nothing to do with luck and being lucky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
No one is talking about 7200 or under. Talk to the people that race and run them at the high levels I am talking about and you will hear a different story

Trollspeed has been racing for a while, I don't discard what they say easily!

Plus, I usually go on my own experience, mine failed, trollspeed has had failures, the redbull 9k has had failures and they were all with the volvo springs, what else do you need to know??????

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
Think what you want, they are shimmed t5 springs by the way and also that is how swedish dynamics does their increased springs, shims, not that I think that is the best way, just that it is a way that has been done.

I have had a failure, the 9k redbull has had multiple failures, trollspeed has had failures.

So, you think that because I am the first to post about it, its not happening eh??? That is a little naive don't you think? Paul never gets on the forums and neither does Frank, at least as far as I know. Just because its not in the forums does not mean it has not occured!

Feel free to keep running them, I for one will be trying a new spring

John
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:00 PM   #3
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Et..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
It think you still have not gotten the point, if one needs more spring in there it shall be put in there, but do understand that you are babbling that something is SHIT which is not, and it will not turn into shit if you brake it in a application which requires a stiffer spring to be used than original + 20% (ie. the volvo). With all credit to the parties you refer to, but this whole matter is not rocket science and if these big boys do not understand it i really cant help. Have friends who run over 100kg springs in their race cars, because their cars require it, but it does not mean I need to put them in my car, since the ones which are in there are more than fine for this application.

I asked you once but I will ask again, provide all of the specs of the cars you refer to and also what parameters they where runing when the failure struck. As long as you cannot provide this information you information does not surve us any good, because all the facts are missing which are needed to draw any conslusion what so ever what to void. It cannot be that hard to understand this issue, its kind of the same as a speaking of a rod for instance, which is good for a certain application but if you run too much of this and that out from the engine it will bend, but it does not make a rod to be shit for them who do not run this and that from their engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a12 View Post
I'm wondering if the problem is only on T5 cars. T5 car valves have more mass as we all know;they're more durable and beefier valves. The stock T5 and volvo springs may not be enough at high rpm to eliminate valve float. The higher you rev the engine the quicker the valve must change directions.
Vigge: Do you know the approximate percentage difference in mass (weight) between the T5 and T7 valve springs? It would be interesting to perform some calculations on this.
What are the ratings on the T5 and volvo springs (in N/m or N/mm)?
I'm assuming also they are linear springs-they appear as such.
Could the oil viscosity used have anything to do with it also? Could the increased viscosity of say a 40weight to 30weight oil be enought to cause extra friction between the valve guide and valve, enough to slow it down just enough to cause piston contact?
These seem like the only two factors that could be causing any issues.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenuineSaab View Post
These are all T5 heads and valves referred to in this thread.

We run T5 8400rpm, Volvo, stock lifters, Way too much backpressure and 30psi boost

Until the Viggen went past 11K revs it was just fine with stock springs and 7200rpm for years.

With stiffer springs won't you have more cam wear and lifter issues? I tackled this ~15 years ago in my v4 95 and 8v 99.

Oil is not really an issue here. Simply basic physics of the valve mass and camshaft acceleration/decel rates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
You are funny, there are failures, its been noted from reputable sources. You can deny it all you want, I am not willing to take the chance anymore.

You live down the road from Trollspead, does your phone not work? I am not going to put what they said out on a public forum. Call them and ask them what the issue is. They say there is an issue, I had an issue, case closed in my mind.

I did not say they were shit and you think I gain something from saying they have failed in my car and other cars? I think you sir are the one missing the point.

What do you want, a visual inspection of each car? Just take it for what its worth, there are some failures and there may be a better option out there!

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
Never thought it would be so difficult to state that there have been some failures. I am not sure if you guys just don't want to believe it or think I am just putting information out there for some unknown crazy slanderous reason.

I just wanted to point out that I had a failure, more failures have been reported by people that have been racing saabs for over 10 years and I think that might be something to consider when choosing an uprated valve spring to go with your uprated cam set.

Trollspeed has been racing high rpm and high hp cars for how long? I give them some credence and if they say they have a spring that may work better, I am willing to try it. I am going to try it and if it fails, I will report that information as well.

Its not to slam the volvo springs, its to report a possible issue and solution. I also ran the springs for over a year at 7200rpm with no issues, they seem fine for that. I made it about 3 weeks with a 7500rpm limit and holset super 40 with a 16cm2 housing and no cat, not thinking there is much back pressure there...

Anyway, I am not the advocate for any spring company and only want something that works, if it does not work, I report my findings, if it does work, I report that as well.

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
I have nothing to gain from this argument, its not worth my time. You know the specs on my car, they are almost identical to your car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
I recoll you stating that you where told that the volvo springs where shit and dont belong in cars... but anyhow you still dont seem to understand the point that a HW part one puts in the car works in a certain range and if you land outside them you will brake it or something else as result of improper function of the HW part. If you really want provide useful inforamtion fix the facts so people can draw their own conclusino what to use in their set-ups and what not, and dont just hide behind a brand name tuner that "they said", bacause its not enough. Like I said my B204 revs happily past 8k with 2.4bar boost, and has exhaust cam almost 2mm open at TDC and head milled way below the saab low limit. In another words the space is more or less ananomous with 10.4 enem cams between valve and piston and despite of 3bar back pressure with the previous turbine housing this did not collide. These springs and the whole head to be more exact is from Marko1880 ex car whom ran it for a few years on his race car (one of the fastet strip saabs there has been). Without lying I can say that it is closer to calculate in hours how much the project car has seen use between 7.5-8k + rather than seconds, and if this is has not been enough to brake it, it wont happen. So with your "new" information about the springs it does not change the history it already written despite of what Trollspeed, red bull team or whom says.

You cannot be so short sighted that you look only into the spring, when it has been written out numerous times in this thread already that the whole package counts and you cannot overlook what the other parameters are doing, because they are relevant to when valves begin to float.

So in shortness without facts the "news" are not "news" and dont really help anybody in this community with their builds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
yes I know your set-up but have given up asking for any datalogs since they have been too hard for you to post up In otherwords we know the hw but we know absolute know nothing what happens in the engine. Wrote a few words of paraters in the post above and logs are free use if one is interested in them...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigge View Post
Mayby you should consider once to measure it, can open eyes. I Currently run a #18 housing on the 2.0 and even that is too small and the vig with #16 is topped with current cams far before 7.5k. Next set-up will be #23 housing and 75mm turbine wheel...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JZW View Post
I have only stated they may not be reliable above 7200rpm and the other racers hate them and think they are garbage. I do not think they are garbage, just don't trust them above 7200rpm.

Don't think I will get around to measuring pressure, the 16cm2 is pretty laggy as it is and I am thinking of going down to the 14cm2, not bigger.

Even if I knew the pressure was high, I would not go larger, I would make the changes I am with a stiffer spring to combat the back pressure. Plus, with Nick's gt3071wg, we know the pressure is much higher, so it does not really make much sense to me that my failure would be related to back pressure when that turbo has much higher back pressure, as Nick himself stated.

All I can test with my data logger at the moment is spool-up with rpm and boost pressure and a/f, not sure how you think that will help determine any potential issues with my set up in relation to the springs.

I am not sure why I had valve float, but since some people with lots of experience and time running power levels we are now have also had the same issue, its easy for me to put two and two together and say, maybe in some cases with high rpm and hp, valve float is possible with volvo springs and the enem cams above 7200rpm.

I am not going to change the turbo or housing to something bigger, my choices are to try another spring, run the same springs and hope for the best.

Maybe it only happens once in a blue moon, not sure, but like stated, will try new springs and see how it goes.

I also put a little more into what the guys over the pond say because they have been doing this for years and I have only been at this power level for 6 months and you just went up in rpm a couple of months ago and Nick has not been up there that long either. If you and Nick had been running to 8k for years without issue, I would be more inclined to beleive there is not an issue wiht the springs and not that maybe you just have been lucky so far.

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by comtrang View Post
Yeah, like twice-the-area-of-mine huge.


It's kinda nice to have the whole argument in one thread, is the only thing. You could quote every post since I was first acting like a wimp and post them in a new forum. I have another 3 hours of nothing to do at work, I may do that.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:48 PM   #4
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You forgot to preserve the OPs' threadjackers quotes.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:14 PM   #5
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It's all good, they're still in my thread. I just multi-quoted all the posts that pertained to valve springs and here they are.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:28 AM   #6
lms
Live, eat, and sleep by TSL
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Can't you lock that thread until you want to update it?
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