900 CE/GT Project

[Torsten]

Hi, My name is Torsten and i live in the Netherlands. You can say i usually got SAAB on the brain and i decided it is time to share my current project with you. I love the classic 900 and got hold of a 900 CE, or 900GT as it's called in europe. The car was originally delivered in Germany and the German GT's came with an extra: a factory fitted sunroof. The car had little rust and seemed a good starting point.
The ideas for tuning a 900 started when i owned a 900S (low pressure turbo). I added the intercooler, the APC system and changed the primary gears from type 6 to 7. Fiddling with the APC got me 1 bar of boost and a lot of fun.... until i crashed it.
So what does the modlist look like for the GT? Well.. nothing what hasn't been done before but here we go:

Trionic 5.2 for fuel, ignition and boostcontrol
2.1 intake & head.
'85 exhaust cam, NA intake cam.
T8 low compression pistons.
TD04 turbocharger with 6cm exhaust housing.
chillcast 4 speed with type 6 primaries.
Saab 9000 2.3T Clutch and pressureplate.
Saab 9000 calipers (front)


At the moment i'm rebuilding the engine of the crashed 900S Aero for use in the GT.
My oldest son helped me dismanteling the crashed Aero:



And this is the GT:


In the following days i'll post pictures of the engine rebuild.

[tuner4life]

Ooh, I like build threads!!

[turbocon86]

Subscribed--watching intently.

[Torsten]

Ok so here we go.

I removed the Aero engine together with another SAABcrazy: Jerry



Took it apart and did clearance checks on the bigend and smallend bearings. They where still in ok condition but i decided to replace all of them. I didn't want to run the risk with the 300 HP in mind.

Pistons and crankshaft removed:


Checking clearances:


And the new shiny T8 Mahle pistons waiting to get installed. (Ignore the bottle of wine)



Tomorrow more!

[KPAero]

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing more progress. Any particular reason why your planning to use Trionic 5.2?

[dan-the-kid]

Originally Posted by KPAero

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing more progress. Any particular reason why your planning to use Trionic 5.2?

from what I understand T5.2 cars in europe are widely available. Also T5.2 and the later LH systems both use the hall effect crank pos sensors. No need to make up a CPS bracket mount+wheel etc....

[KPAero]

Originally Posted by dan-the-kid

from what I understand T5.2 cars in europe are widely available. Also T5.2 and the later LH systems both use the hall effect crank pos sensors. No need to make up a CPS bracket mount+wheel etc....

Ah, that makes sense. I knew about the hall sensor compatibility, but assumed the extra effort of making the trigger wheel set up would be worth it considering the lack of T5.2 ecu ect around here. If those are more plentiful in other parts of the world it makes a lot more sense...

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by KPAero

Ah, that makes sense. I knew about the hall sensor compatibility, but assumed the extra effort of making the trigger wheel set up would be worth it considering the lack of T5.2 ecu ect around here. If those are more plentiful in other parts of the world it makes a lot more sense...

Finding a T5.2 ecu, or for that matter a T5.2 donor in europe is also very difficult. Only in 1993 the Saab 9000 got this type of engine managment. I came across a complete system a year or so ago and just went with it without doing the reading bit. It took some serious time before i got some spare ecu's, remember flashing the roms with T5 suite lies ahead and you don't need a fried ecu after you did all the hard work.
My advice if you consider trionic: go for T5.5.

[9000Andrew]

Awesome project! Thanks for sharing it with us!

[Torsten]

Thanks and no trouble sharing it.
And keep your ideas going while reading and share them.

A while ago i brought the shortblock to the shop for new bores since the T8 pistons are first oversize. I also had a little removed from the top just to be sure of a good fit.



Nice:



Then i decided to give it a paintjob. I used motip engine paint in a spraycan, red of course:

Degreased, sanded and masked:




Painted, and i must say i was happy with the results

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by KPAero

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing more progress. Any particular reason why your planning to use Trionic 5.2?

Nice car you have KP! And a same issue as well.

I wonder exactly what 9000 clutch/pressureplate i have to order. I'm gonna use a lightened 91-93 flywheel. I think this one fits without modifying the flywheel right?

Parts for Saabs: 9000 90'-93' 2.3 Turbo Clutch Kit - Sachs

[turbocon86]

Originally Posted by Torsten

Nice car you have KP! And a same issue as well.

I wonder exactly what 9000 clutch/pressureplate i have to order. I'm gonna use a lightened 91-93 flywheel. I think this one fits without modifying the flywheel right?

Parts for Saabs: 9000 90'-93' 2.3 Turbo Clutch Kit - Sachs

If you are using the stock 2.0 flywheel, you have to go with the earlier 9000 clutch and pressure plate if you want direct bolt-on (from the 2.0 motor). If you plan to use the 2.3 clutch, you have to use the flywheel from that car too. It will also have to be machined to work on a 2.0 motor.

Discussed this a while ago here: 9000 clutch disk???????

I use the earlier 9000 clutch and pressure plate in my c900s with performance mods in the 240hp range with no issues. If you plan to get up to 300, you may want to go through the process of altering the 2.3 setup to fit your car.

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by turbocon86

If you are using the stock 2.0 flywheel, you have to go with the earlier 9000 clutch and pressure plate if you want direct bolt-on (from the 2.0 motor). If you plan to use the 2.3 clutch, you have to use the flywheel from that car too. It will also have to be machined to work on a 2.0 motor.

Discussed this a while ago here: [URL="http://www.saablink.net/forum/performance-modifications-classic-900/44070.htm"]http://www.saablink.net/forum/performance-modifications-classic-900/44070.htm[/

I use the earlier 9000 clutch and pressure plate in my c900s with performance mods in the 240hp range with no issues. If you plan to get up to 300, you may want to go through the process of altering the 2.3 setup to fit your car.

Ok thanks, i got a bit confused by the twinsaabs site. Jeff mentioned a 91-93 disk/pp combination used on a late c900 flywheel.
I think i go for the setup described in the quote above. Mainly because i already had some work done one the flywheel. Besides the surface i had it made lighter.
If anyone has some other thoughts here's the link:
http://www.twinsaabs.com/900_repair/clutchjob/upgrade.asp


Will post some pictures later.

[Bennie]

Originally Posted by turbocon86

It will also have to be machined to work on a 2.0 motor.

Why?... Mine fitted straight in!

Great build project! Brings back memories .

What pistons are that and what compressionratio you hoop to get? When you need some help with T5suite and stuff you can always jump by!!

Are you hooking up a wideband to the trionic and what injectors are you gonna use?

[turbocon86]

Why?... Mine fitted straight in!

The timing marks are off.

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by Bennie

Why?... Mine fitted straight in!

Great build project! Brings back memories .

What pistons are that and what compressionratio you hoop to get? When you need some help with T5suite and stuff you can always jump by!!

Are you hooking up a wideband to the trionic and what injectors are you gonna use?

(dutch mode on)
He Benjamin goed je hier te zien. En dank je
(dutch mode off)


Thanks,

The pistons are T8 APC pistons, first oversize.
Combined with a 2.1 head these pistons give a comp. ratio 8.7 : 1 according to a website. I didn't do calculations to check.

I'm not yet thinking about wideband sensors and injectors (yet) First the engine rebuild and after that the trionic harness. So the more serious tuning will take a while.

Thanks for the T5 offer........any good bins around for T5.2 and c900?

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by turbocon86

The timing marks are off.

I assume the same amound as the slope of the 900 engine compared to the 9000? So 45 degrees?

[turbocon86]

IIRC, it's 30 +/- degrees. I'll have to check to make sure.

There's a lot of conflicting info out there about this. I've read some places that the 1990-1993 c900 is the same flywheel as the 2.3 9000, but that if you use it you need to mill 3mm off because it will be too thick to fit the larger 9.5" 9000 clutch and pp. in the available space. Also need to mill around the center because the later 9000 clutch has a larger center hub.

Then, I've read other places that they won't match up at all and that you should use the 9000 flywheel but that it needs modifications to fit. Because I couldn't seem to get a real consensus from anyone, I just went with the stock c900 flywheel and the pre-'90 2.0 9000 9" clutch and pp. That I know for sure will fit.

If anybody would know for absolutely certain, it would be Dave Kennedy, but he's not on this forum. He's on saabnet as 900Aero if you want to contact him there.

[Bennie]

Originally Posted by turbocon86

The timing marks are off.

Not a big deal with Trionic. Hookup the can/usb and laptop with a open bin in the ECU and live tune it. And it is 5.2 so the timing is always right. With 5.5 you need a mark on 10 degrees BTC. than you can adjust the triggerwheel or sensor to match the flywheel.

I've read some places that the 1990-1993 c900 is the same flywheel as the 2.3 9000, but that if you use it you need to mill 3mm off because it will be too thick to fit the larger 9.5" 9000 clutch and pp. in the available space. Also need to mill around the center because the later 9000 clutch has a larger center hub.

No, the flywheel is not the same! You cannot fit the stock 900 (turbo) or 9000 2.0 turbo clutch to it.
You can only fit the 90-93 2.3L or aero clutch to the 90-93 2.3L and aero flywheel and fit straight in. Yes it is tight to get it in but feasible, and you need to file a bit alloy of the crankshaftbearing cover.
The 2 holes that are used to bold the automatic gearbox hit the flywheel a bit.

You really need a wideband because a lower compression engine needs a very different VE map! (and other stuff) You need to autotune with the wideband.
I had this little problem to, even with the stock engine. I.am not sure why but a stock 9000 2.0 VE map is not very useable on the 900 engine, even a stock one.
So there is no stock BIN for your engine when you get it running on Trionic.
Yes the car start and runs but coldstart and transient can be crapy and openloop. Closeloop to but you not notice it so mutch but in closeloop the VE map is still a reference map!

Hookup as much as you can to the trionic, speedsensor, evap, ect. Speedsensor for the engine fuelcut at Deceleration and the evap for good closeloop running.

When you need a Lucas manual let me know and PM me your mailadres.

Succes!!

[saabmatt]

The MY90-93 2.3 flywheel will fit with no mods at all, you then use the 240mm 2.3 turbo clutch.

I had one modified last year by having a T5 trigger wheel cut into the back and then had it and the clutch balanced, been in use in my GT30 equipped c900 for a couple of years with no issues.