900 CE/GT Project

[mike d]

Originally Posted by dan-the-kid

from what I understand T5.2 cars in europe are widely available. Also T5.2 and the later LH systems both use the hall effect crank pos sensors. No need to make up a CPS bracket mount+wheel etc....

t5.2 harnese suck to deal with compared to the later ng900 ones,, building a cps wheel is way easier than sorting though a 1993 harness.

also, i think your piston/head combo will run very low compression, the 2.1 head drops comp a lot as is, never mind with lower comp pistons to boot,, i feel like the car will be very laggy off boost

the 91-93 9000 turbo flywheel bolts right onto a b202 no machining needed, mine bolted straight on with no BS at alll, Spgbee88 was there when i did it!

you just also need to run the 91-93 9k turbo clutch, which youd want anyways, they hold a lot more power

[turbocon86]

OK, on the clutch, I checked with Dave K.

His reply:

It's actually a '91-'93 9000T flywheel that is a direct fit on the later c900s, but they are hard to find. They use the larger 9.5" clutch. The '90 and earlier 9000T flywheel is the same as a '90 up C-900T but the timing marks are 30 degrees off (30=0). The clutch and pressure plate from the pre-'90 cars is 9" and will bolt directly to a '90+ flywheel with no modification.

Since the '91-'93 9000T flywheels are hard to find, I just turn a dime-a-dozen early C-900 flywheel into the mid year 9000T flywheel by machining 3mm off of the face and drilling the larger pressure plate mounting and dowel holes. There's also some machining around the outside of the flywheel to crank bolts that has to be done to fit the larger clutch hub. Then you've got a '91-'93 9000T flywheel but with the timing marks in the right place! These flywheels are already lighter just because of the minus 3mm to make room for the larger pressure plate so it's a smart upgrade.

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by Bennie

No, the flywheel is not the same! You cannot fit the stock 900 (turbo) or 9000 2.0 turbo clutch to it.
You can only fit the 90-93 2.3L or aero clutch to the 90-93 2.3L and aero flywheel and fit straight in. Yes it is tight to get it in but feasible, and you need to file a bit alloy of the crankshaftbearing cover.
The 2 holes that are used to bold the automatic gearbox hit the flywheel a bit.

Ben, before you switched to the 2.3 flywheel and clutch, what combination did you use?

Originally Posted by Bennie

You really need a wideband because a lower compression engine needs a very different VE map! (and other stuff) You need to autotune with the wideband.
I had this little problem to, even with the stock engine. I.am not sure why but a stock 9000 2.0 VE map is not very useable on the 900 engine, even a stock one.
So there is no stock BIN for your engine when you get it running on Trionic.
Yes the car start and runs but coldstart and transient can be crapy and openloop. Closeloop to but you not notice it so mutch but in closeloop the VE map is still a reference map!

Hookup as much as you can to the trionic, speedsensor, evap, ect. Speedsensor for the engine fuelcut at Deceleration and the evap for good closeloop running.

When i'm at that stage of the build i'll drop by so you can help on my way. My parents live in Haaksbergen so i'm quite often in the neighbourhood.

Originally Posted by Bennie

When you need a Lucas manual let me know and PM me your mailadres.

Succes!!

Thanks, you send me the manual about a year ago. It's been a rocky year and the GT had to wait. But now i'm back on track.

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by turbocon86

OK, on the clutch, I checked with Dave K.

His reply:

It's actually a '91-'93 9000T flywheel that is a direct fit on the later c900s, but they are hard to find. They use the larger 9.5" clutch. The '90 and earlier 9000T flywheel is the same as a '90 up C-900T but the timing marks are 30 degrees off (30=0). The clutch and pressure plate from the pre-'90 cars is 9" and will bolt directly to a '90+ flywheel with no modification.






Since the '91-'93 9000T flywheels are hard to find, I just turn a dime-a-dozen early C-900 flywheel into the mid year 9000T flywheel by machining 3mm off of the face and drilling the larger pressure plate mounting and dowel holes. There's also some machining around the outside of the flywheel to crank bolts that has to be done to fit the larger clutch hub. Then you've got a '91-'93 9000T flywheel but with the timing marks in the right place! These flywheels are already lighter just because of the minus 3mm to make room for the larger pressure plate so it's a smart upgrade.

Now look.... above is the final writeup on upgrading flywheels on a C900, thanks . I already had my flywheel (from the S aero) machined and the surface redone. The weight went down form 8.9Kgs to 7.7Kgs.
With the knowledge i have now are the options: look for a 91-93 2.3T Flywheel or go with ny existing one and use the pre 90 9000 2.0T pressureplate and disk. Machine a old C900 flywheel to 9000 90-93 spec. Or go for a non saab solution.
We'll see.

pictures of the flywheel (stock C900, 90-93).



Metal removed:





I hope the weight reduction compensates somewhat for the lower compression ratio.......

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by mike d

t5.2 harnese suck to deal with compared to the later ng900 ones,, building a cps wheel is way easier than sorting though a 1993 harness.

Yes i totally agree Took me a while indeed.

Originally Posted by mike d

also, i think your piston/head combo will run very low compression, the 2.1 head drops comp a lot as is, never mind with lower comp pistons to boot,, i feel like the car will be very laggy off boost

You might be right. But hey its a projectcar so there is room for trial and error and i like the tinkering anyway.

[Bennie]

I got the 9000 2.0 turbo clutch in it. No problem with this until it says BANG!!
The springs where shot out the disk.

My advice for the clutch is: go for the 9000 2.0 Turbo. I,am not sure why but it was holding more torque than the 2.3 i got now. Maybe the clutch assembly is stronger..!?

And maybe a 2.3 disk (when it fits the 9000 2.0 clutch) you can make the strongest (stock) combination possible when that is truth.

I still got the 9000 clutch so maybe i try it out.

also, i think your piston/head combo will run very low compression, the 2.1 head drops comp a lot as is, never mind with lower comp pistons to boot,, i feel like the car will be very laggy off boost

Yes that is true but good for gearbox. It also gets a big smile on you face above the 4000 rpm,s till 7000 rpm,s with a lot of pre ignition. The engine sounds like angels singing (screaming)!!
The power keeps building up all the way to 7000 rpm,s. You never thing: now i need to shift, no you think: i stay i fourth and pull it to 7000 rpm,s resulting in a speed of 220 kmph ....

Ooww yes i already did you the Lucas manual, forgot it and indeed time is flying and another year is past!

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by Bennie

I got the 9000 2.0 turbo clutch in it. No problem with this until it says BANG!!
The springs where shot out the disk.

My advice for the clutch is: go for the 9000 2.0 Turbo. I,am not sure why but it was holding more torque than the 2.3 i got now. Maybe the clutch assembly is stronger..!?
!

Strange the experiences you have with the torque. But the clutch you use is a 2.3i? Shouldn't that be a 2.3T?
Anyway i made up my mind, the 9000 2.0T clutch will do for now.
I'm also on the lookout for an older c900 flywheel for modifying purposes to fit the 91-93 2.3T clutch assembly, as described by turbocon86/Dave kennedy. Thanks guys

[Bennie]

Sorry no i mean "I got"........

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by Bennie

Sorry no i mean "I got"........

Get it.
Ordered the clutch today at parts for saab. So that is of my mind. Tonight i did some cleaning of the alu engine covers. For the rebuild i still need the seals and gaskets, assembling will start soon!

[Torsten]

Besides small end bearings i also wanted new bushings in the conrods. This proved to be difficult for a number of reasons:
First: I only could get hold of the bushings via the saab dealer and they were not cheap.
Second: in contrary to the small and bigend bearings these bushings need to be pressed in the rod an then machined to exactly fit the wrist pins.
Third: these bushings do not very often need replacing so get advice on the wear before you decide to put new ones in.

new bushing in:


old bushing:



There is also a very small difference in T8 wristpins vs. T16 wristpins. the diameter of a T16 wristpin is a little bit larger so the pistons needed machining to accept the T16 pins. I also decided to have a small hole drilled in the piston (just like in the T16 pistons) to ensure oiling of the wristpin.





I discussed piston design with MMOE on saabscene. He told me that in the T8 pistons the wristpin itself didn't move. Only the conrod moved around the pin. In teh T16 pistons the pin moved in the piston and in the rod bushing.

[Torsten]

Right so i got the clutch and gaskets. Last couple of days it was freezing so i got no work done. This weekend it's a little warmer and i hope i can find the time.

9000 2.0T clutch:



gaskets:


I gave the T5 harness some thought. I got a spare connector and i am thinking about making a totally new harness. I did the same when i made my own APC harness in the past so i didn't expect any problems. But when I tried to get the little metal connectors out of the main connector none came loose. anyone a suggestion?
Connector:

[jdwertz]

I have run into this problem time and time again. I have a buddy that has the actual Saab pinout tools in order to remove them. There are other companies that make pinout tools, I have been looking for awhile trying to find the best/most compatible ones without much luck.

I have gotten them out with small screwdrivers but most connectors I have ended up destroying trying to get those buggers out of there.

[turbocon86]

The micro screwdriver technique has worked for me in the past. You need to slide them in the little rectangular channels above and below each pin. The pins have little springy prongs that catch on the plastic housing so you can't pull the pins out the bottom. Push those little tabs in with the screwdrivers and they should slide out. You could probably make a tool by grinding down a pair of tweezers to fit in the channels if you had a mind to.

[DrewP]

Sewing needles / stick pins work too, but tweezers is good because then you can depress both of the lock tangs simultaneously.

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by turbocon86

The micro screwdriver technique has worked for me in the past. You need to slide them in the little rectangular channels above and below each pin. The pins have little springy prongs that catch on the plastic housing so you can't pull the pins out the bottom. Push those little tabs in with the screwdrivers and they should slide out. You could probably make a tool by grinding down a pair of tweezers to fit in the channels if you had a mind to.

Exactly what i tried, i grinded down small pliers, used micro's and common pins but with no luck. I don't get it really cause with the apc connector i had no issues. I think i go visit a BOSCH servicecenter tomorrow and find out if i can use their special tools. Will post later.

[Torsten]

late last night i solved the connector issues. The thing is i just didn't apply enough force to get them out. So here is the way to do it without the special tools:


for the small connectors: use commom pins:


for the larger ones i used nails from a air tacker:



Now i only have to find the exact type of connectors SAAB used. If anyone could help me with this. In this specific connector they where supplied by AMP. Typenumbers would be very helpfull.

[white65]

You can look around here:

AMP Connectors/Terminals

They have the amp connectors for the Porsche which Saab also used. Can't tell what the exact size terminal is that you're looking for. I used the boots they have for the amp connectors and they have held up well.

Found this site also:

TYCO ELECTRONICS / AMP > Automotive Connectors Distributor | Uniquip, Page 1

[Torsten]

Originally Posted by white65

You can look around here:

AMP Connectors/Terminals

They have the amp connectors for the Porsche which Saab also used. Can't tell what the exact size terminal is that you're looking for. I used the boots they have for the amp connectors and they have held up well.

Found this site also:

TYCO ELECTRONICS / AMP > Automotive Connectors Distributor | Uniquip, Page 1

Thanks,

I also did some research in the datasheets of AMP products. It turns out that the 2 types in the trionic connector are known as:

Micro timer 2 series : small ones
964275-2 Product Details - TE
Junior-Power-Timer (JPT) Series: big ones
927779-6 Product Details - TE


It seems to me that these names are an industry standard. There is a variety in alloys available which is reflected in the price and for crimping, you need different tools.

[Torsten]

Today i found some time to work on the engine. The rods are connected to the new pistons, yay!!




The wristpin is retained by two round springs. It was a bit fiddely to put those back and here is my approach: Put the spring in on one end then use your fingers to push the rest in then use a socket to push it in it's final spot.





I also cleaned these covers and fitted new crankshaft oil seals.
Note CPS bracket on the oilpump cover. Trionic 5.2 uses the same sensor as the EZK equipped cars (N/A injection).





I hope tonight i find some time to put the crank in the shortblock and then maybe tomorrow the pistons?
Anyway have a nice weekend!

[Torsten]

Crank is in!


New bearings:



New thrust washers and lots of oil





some beers and a torque wrench @ 110nm did the rest:



Its amazing how easy the crank rotates, even after torquing the big end caps..

cheers!